Bringing Consumer Centricity to Pharma: Val Pastrana on Innovation, Insights, and the Future of Research

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Greenbook Podcast host Karen Lynch sits down with Val Pastrana, Global Consumer Science Lead for the AMEA region at Sanofi. With a career spanning leading CPG giants like P&G, Unilever, and Mondelēz, Val shares his journey in insights, innovation, and consumer science.

He discusses the importance of embedding consumer-centricity in pharmaceutical product development, the balance between AI-driven research and human-led insights, and the value of a global perspective in shaping innovation. Val also delves into his leadership philosophy, emphasizing authenticity, psychological safety, and fostering individual strengths. Tune in for an engaging discussion on the future of insights and the role of technology in shaping consumer research.

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Key Takeaways:

• Consumer insights should be embedded in R&D for true innovation.
• A global perspective helps balance market-specific needs with scalable solutions.
• AI is a valuable tool but cannot replace human observation and context.
• Understanding the deeper motivations behind consumer behavior leads to better innovation.
• Leadership is about authenticity, nurturing strengths, and fostering psychological safety.
• Future-back innovation identifies trends by studying extreme consumers.

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Resources & Links:

• Learn more about Sanofi Consumer Healthcare

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You can reach out to Val Pastrana on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Val Pastrana for being our guest. Thanks also to our production team and our editor at Big Bad Audio.

Transcript

Karen: Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Greenbook Podcast. It’s Karen Lynch. I’m excited to be hosting this episode today with somebody that I just saw in person last week. Even though he is in Singapore and I am in the States, we came together at IIEX APAC last week. I’m excited to welcome Val Pastrana to the show today. Val, welcome to the Greenbook Podcast.

Val: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Karen: I’m so glad you’re here as well. Why don’t you introduce yourself to the audience? I could share that you’re, you know, the global lead in consumer science for the AMEA region, but if you bring your current role at Sanofi to life for everybody, that would be best.

Val: Thank you. So yeah, thank you, Karen again, for having me here today, and thank you for everyone who’s listening right now. So yeah, I’m Val Pastrana. I’m currently the consumer science lead for the AMEA region, that’s Asia, Middle East, and Africa, with some global component in my role as well, Hence the slash in my role. So, I actually joined the company Sanofi in October last year, and I was brought in to do two things, primarily, which is one, to bring a more consumer mindset and consumer-centricity in the way we develop our products. So, there’s a huge and proud pharma heritage behind the consumer health business of the company, and as we begin to spin off out of the mother company, Sanofi, this year, it became really important for us to be more consumer-centric. We believe that we will be the best, fast-moving consumer health company in and for the world, by the end of the year. Or by [laugh] by the next couple of years. And it’s really important to bring a function like mine to do that. So, it comes in the way we design our products, the way we communicate the science, and the way we engage with our consumers. It’s bringing the consumer-centricity within the R&D function.

Karen: And you have so much experience in these large organizations, in consumer packaged goods. I mean, your background, you know, you have J&J on your resume, you have Mondelēz at your resume, Samsung. You have P&G. You’ve worked at some amazing organizations. How has your background led you to this current role, and your respect for the consumer voice?

Val: Well firstly, I’m really, truly blessed who have had the privilege to go through this many different companies. It’s not by design, for sure. I never woke up when I was 18 years old and said, “I will go through all of these companies by the age of 40,” but it happened. I think it really stemmed from my passion to innovate, and part of that is that just this curiosity, the hunger for to learn new things and to know more about different types of consumers and introduce new products. So, I was really privileged to have had an opportunity to work first in P&G, basically the university of innovators and product researchers, and I was really happy to have learned a lot of skills and mindsets there that I was able to bring into other categories. So, after that, it’s really just about knowing more about other markets. If you can see also, my trajectory has been moved—when the company moves, I’ve been moving to different geographies, and experiencing different cultures, different people, and that, for me, I think, really enriched my view also. So, I’m proud to say that I’m probably one of those unique people who have that ability to move from different cultures, different languages, different people, different categories, and different businesses because of those experiences. So, my DNA has always been innovation. Obviously, an important precursor of innovation is insights. But I bring in my technical background as well to be able to develop and experiment with new solutions coming out of that. And I think that’s where it brought me to this role right now. There’s a huge opportunity to really bring the science to life within the brands that we have in Sanofi Consumer Healthcare—moving to now called Opella—and I think I bring in a lot of those experiences and skills that we can readily reapply as well to these brands. Obviously, building the capability is another big challenge as well within the company, coming from a very strong pharma heritage, to bring the consumer-centricity into the way we design our products, and really, really seriously considering the consumer insight as a science in itself, right? Because there’s a lot of science there in terms of behavioral science and cognitive science that we can really bring in to understand more about what consumers needs and what they’re not telling us, so that we can integrate better for them?

Karen: Yeah. There is so much in what you just shared that I want to go back to, and I’m so excited for this. First of all, we share a passion for innovation, and also the way insights can lead towards innovation. That’s something that in my practice as a researcher, I was always helping organizations towards, is like, this, let’s learn from consumers and use it to feed either our R&D processes, or our ideation, you know, new product development in general. So, it’s a sweet spot that I have also. And that may be why I’ve always sort of appreciated what I see you present on stage. So, for context, for the audience, last week was our IIEX APAC event, and Val, I have been to that event twice in Bangkok, and Val has taken to the stage in a plenary spot twice now, in my [laugh] experience. Last year, talking about innovating like a five-year-old. This year, talking about the art and science of future-back innovation research. So, first of all, you mentioned your, kind of, global role, and learning about what different regions are all about, and how that kind of feeds your innovative thinking, and I just want to sit with that for a minute because there’s a lot of people in your role listening right now, people who have that kind of global insights title, and I have experienced firsthand just being in another region, especially the Asia Pacific region, which is very different from, you know, North America, for example, seeing those differences, experiencing them firsthand is so critical to my career and my experience as a researcher. What do you think that global exposure and experience has done for you as a researcher? 

Val: Several things, I think. So, the first one is that—and this happens a lot with a lot of the global roles looking at average or means of quantitative data—so I’ve had roles in the past where I have researches done in China, in Brazil, in the UK, in Southeast Asia, and we almost just look at just for the sake of facilitating conversations, just conversations, just looking at the average. And what it kind of tells me now, having experienced different settings and contexts across different markets, is that the global average consumer doesn’t exist. There’s always a nuance there that we need to ensure that we take into consideration. And I really like because I was brought into that kind of mindset when I was back in Unilever, where we had what we called global must-haves, and then you have the local adaptations also. So, giving that flexibility that I thought was really interesting, so that we can at least platformize the technologies where it makes sense, and then we have a scale, and we can drive all those efficiencies required to run a big business like Unilever, but ensure that we have the right hooks for the local consumers. Fragrances, for example, sensorial delighters that are we’re building into the formula, the technology backbone is the same, the benefit that they’re getting is the same, but the experience eventually is very different and unique to that particular market because they have, for example, hair differences between the bolatos in Brazil, versus the Asian hair in China. We just have to have that differences built into the to the way we look at the formulations, right? So, I think that’s one thing, and that’s why, even in my goodwill role right now—and I know a lot of my peers don’t think the same way—it’s that ongoing tension to make sure that we bring in those specificities and unique contexts that our specific markets have. The other side of that also now is, I think we’ve swung too heavily as well to very bespoke, market specific innovations, and are missing now the scale as well. And I think that’s where my first experience, also in P&G, was helping at least understand where we can find those platformable ideas, either technology, or insights, or the concept itself, right, and then really find ways to adapt it for the particular market as well. Never easy, but I think that’s the one thing for me that is really important as we grow into these global roles, that although we’re global as a functional team, we don’t have a global consumer that we directly address. Our job is to integrate, consolidate, but then again, respect the differences and make sure that we innovate and really have those jobs to be done that are specific to those markets articulated well.

Karen: It’s a really good time to be talking about things like personalization or customization linked to the fact that there’s no such thing as a you know, as an average consumer, you know, that they are different. Throughout the world, brings it to a much bigger scope than you might [crosstalk 00:09:21] be looking locally, so I love that point of view. I have a question for you. And many of our listeners are—you know, maybe haven’t gotten to that level. They haven’t advanced their career so that they’re in charge of something globally, but that’s next, right? That might be next on their career ladder, the next rung. What would your advice be to somebody who, perhaps they’ve, you know, gotten fairly high up in their organization, and they lead consumer insights in their country, but to get to that level where you’re in charge globally, what’s a tip or a suggestion or some career advice that you could give to people ready to take that next step? 

Val: A caveat there. My career progression is not by design. It happened organically. I’m just open to new opportunities, but what I can say is that the move from local to regional to global is something that I have always aspired to do, more in the context of understanding how similarities and differences exist. So, there’s this innate, again, curiosity actually propelled me to just go to that progression. Obviously it comes with higher and higher responsibility as well, leadership responsibilities, and through that also—I was really thankful that I was supported by my managers and the ecosystem around me to learn things like influencing, right, and cross-cultural collaboration because those are things that I would never learn if I had stuck with just being local, or just being regional, or being in Asia, for that matter. So, my tip really is, first, you have to want it, [laugh] right? So, it’s not because that because of the prestige or that because of the ramp that goes with it, but the content itself. And again, I can’t say that wasn’t part of my motivations before, but in hindsight, I felt like the novelty of moving into these new roles because I had wanted the rank, or I wanted I had wanted the salary, wore off in the first 30 days very easily, but the one thing that made me really enjoy the rest of my two, three years in those roles also was the fact that the content of the role itself was meaningful for me, and I’m learning a lot from it. So, yeah, you have to want it. Learn a lot. It’s okay to want money, rank, and international experience, but those shouldn’t be the main for the moves that you are wanting to do.

Karen: I love that. You know, and you mentioned being a manager also, which is something that we had wanted to talk about, is you’re now—when you get to that level, you’re in charge of, you know, building a team and building your team’s abilities, and shoring up those skills that your team has. So, talk to me a little bit about building that kind of successful team that powers the work that you do. Are there things that you specifically do to nurture your team? Are there values that you instill in people? Are there opportunities you give? How do you go about building that team?

Val: I must say, as well, I must admit, I’m a reluctant manager. So, I was also having—I’ll share an anecdote also because I was having a conversation with my nine-year-old-a few days back, on my days as a boy scout leader when I was his age. Basically, I was telling him that these are the things I was doing at his age, just to sort of inspire him to think of things they can do for himself. And I was the Boy Scout leader at that time. I was reluctantly put into that role. I never knew why. I also won a platoon leader of that Boy Scout, best platoon leader of that Boy Scout as well. And that kind of stuck to me because it always puzzled me what have I done to actually deserve that? So, when I first got into leadership roles with one person, two person, three persons, ultimately building my teams as well, when I was in Mondelēz, the one thing that really stuck with me that I felt like I needed to do is to be authentic. And my brand of leadership is all about I do what I say. You know exactly who I am from what I say and what I do, and I role model everything that I preach. So, that’s one thing that I felt like was really powerful, not just in terms of connecting with the team that I’m building, but also in terms of pushing transformation agenda, especially in my previous role in Mondelēz. So, that’s the first one. The second one for me, I think that was quite instrumental, is allowing that psychological safety. I didn’t know about psychological safety until I’ve heard of it and read about it four years ago in one of my leadership trainings, but I felt like I’ve been trying to do that because of the authenticity as well. I allow for everyone’s strengths to just come out, and then help them actually realize their potentials, manifest their strengths as I see them. And I have several cases of people I’ve pushed really hard, and actually step up to the plate as well when given an opportunity, and they were so proud. And the feedback to me was they never even knew that they were able and capable to do those things. Those are the things that are really quite important to me, being able to at least help my team understand that there’s more they can do, especially for those who have been in the role for too long. So, I’ve had opportunity, an opportunity also, to manage individuals who have been in the role for, say, ten years, even more senior than I am, and I was able to, at least in the six months to a year that I was with them, I was able to help them pinpoint what’s that unique superpower that they have, and actually maximize that. So, yeah, I won’t name names, but in my role in model is also, I was able to promote someone from a senior manager for a really long time to finally a director in a different role altogether that she was even expecting because she wanted something different. But we thought that she’s a brilliant technical expert, and she drives a lot of value being that. So, we kind of convinced her to move into that role. And hopefully I don’t—I haven’t had a chance to connect with her; hopefully she’s listening. I hope she’s happy in that role, and she’s thriving in that role. So, yeah, so I think it’s just some authenticity and being able to identify that strength and really give them the space to grow and give them the psychological safety to make mistakes in that whole process of growing.

Karen: Yeah, it sounds like you’ve woven some, like, personal coaching into your managerial experience. I’m thinking about that, I’m like, how wonderful that you help bring out the best in people in your team, and help them realize their potential, also. So, it sounds to me very nurturing, for lack of a better word, where you taking that authenticity, you really do care about their success, and you want to see what their strengths are, and you want to, kind of, bring those strengths into a spotlight. You know, I worked for a manager one time also, who said—he kind of was training me—and one of the things he shared was, forget about people’s weaknesses. Like, stop trying to, like, get people to do better with their weaknesses, but really focus on their strengths and leveraging them to the best of their ability. And I’ve not forgotten that either, as a manager myself. It’s like, let’s focus on what people are really good at. And to your point, they may not even know that’s a strength that they have until somebody sees it in them, and says, “That’s a strength you have. Let’s work with that.”

Val: Yeah, can I just share two things more? Two more things there?

Karen: Yeah, please. 

Val: So one, I think, is maybe, though, the other word that I would like to bring in is care. Genuine, genuine care. It’s not just care because you’re a manager, and you say you care, and people expect you to do that. It’s really caring for them as a person. So, that I felt is something that—I expect it from people also, and that’s why, sometimes I feel like my energy is green because I don’t get that from the people around me, but I’ve learned to at least kind of build more resilience and bring more to the team, rather than expect somebody else to fill my tank on care. But care, I think, is a really important, underestimated element of the relationship that we need to have with our peers and with our direct reports. Conversely, I think we need to have the tough conversations, also. So, I’m a tough manager, actually. So, if you asked my direct reports before, they will tell you that I’m very clear on my expectations. I hold them accountable. If there’s no fit, if they don’t deliver, we need to have serious conversations. And I’ve moved people as well, either in other functions or out of the company because of that. It just needs to happen. But the thing I think that I really make sure that I have in those conversations is the care. I haven’t been sued yet, so I think [laugh] I’ve done something at least legally—

Karen: Well, thank goodness [laugh].

Val: —within the legal bonds, minimally. But most of the people I manage out actually are still in contact with me, and they’re thriving well where they are right now. I’m really happy for them because I think they found where they fit more, and they found an environment that will really tap on their strengths.

Karen: I think that you are probably uniquely equipped for that balance of caring with, kind of, tough management as well because of that authenticity you spoke about. So, that’s what I’m recognizing in this conversation, is you honestly care about people and you honestly want what’s best for them, and sometimes there are hard things that they have to do and go to achieve, and you know, kind of workplace behaviors, and they have to do a good job also. So, you can do that because you value authenticity and you are—my instincts tell me because I live in this sort of space that we’re talking about as a qualitative researcher, also, this world of psychological safety, and authenticity, and caring, and respect, like, these are all values that I share with you—but because they trust you to be straightforward or to be transparent, they then can navigate that space for themselves, at least that would be my assumption based on this conversation.

Val: That’s correct.

Karen: Yeah. Very nice, very nice. Let’s shift a little bit this conversation from management into innovation and an innovative mindset, which I know you have. Again based on the some of the talks that you’ve delivered for us at our events, but also you understand that’s who we attract at IIEX, right? We attract people with kind of growth and innovative mindset, by design. So, much of what we bring to the stage, and what we see in potential speakers is this innovative mindset, this desire to move into the future, this desire to grow and focus on what’s next. Talk to me a little bit about how that passion for innovation, kind of, developed in you and how it manifests in your workspace.

Val: Again, it probably goes back all the way when I was a child, and I will go as far back as the leadership conversation that we just had. But I remember again when I was in my senior year before going into university, there was this subject called research in my class, in my high school. Everybody absolutely hated it because there was no clear syllabus, for example, right? All we had to do was propose a problem statement, understand that you have—provide all the data that supports your problem statement, run an experiment that will get you there, and then propose a solution, and then obviously report back to learnings. That’s our whole thing for the whole year. I was best in research, [laugh] also at that time. And again, I was wondering why. First I thought I was good in science, and that’s why I went into a biotechnology course when I was in university. And then obviously, I quickly realized that there’s a scientific method to it. Also the way you experiment is exactly the same, no matter what the problem is, but you need to go through the rigor, and depth, and discipline of going to the scientific method. And that kind of stuck with me. Every problem that I have now, even personal one, sometimes, I kind of like go through the scientific method also, so understanding what the problem statement is, making sure that we have really good insights there, and associating that experimenting with solutions, sometimes be too risky, also with all the things that are moving, hence, all the moves that you’ve seen in my career, quite risky sometimes. But I did do it because I have a passion for learning and experiencing new things. I did have some data also that kind of tells me that I will get something out of that experience. So, it’s been hardwired to me, to be honest. I wouldn’t say I’m—that’s why the label ‘innovator’ for me sometimes also is a bit of an awkward label because I felt like my personality is just that I’m quite analytical, so I really love understanding people and situations. Sometimes to be too nerdy and geeky because of that, I read a lot, and I love to understand people. My kids sometimes see me conversations, I ask them why, and they have a blank stare looking at me because they don’t know where this question is coming from. I just love to understand how things happen and what problems there are. And yeah, and I love, kind of looking at different solutions also, even in my personal life. It’s just naturally coming into to the job that I have. And to be completely honest with you, also, I think it’s one of those skills and mindsets that as you move up, is not that greatly rewarded, at least in many situations and many roles. I’m starting to see that I’m carving out a very specific niche within different companies, and these are the roles were in, you need to be more experimental, and you need to really understand what the problem is, and you need to accelerate capability and transformation, which is kind of the soldier side of corporate efficiency. I never got that because I’m not really for efficiency. I’m more for discovery, and experimentation, exploration, and learning, and sometimes learning you cannot monetize, right? It’s something that you just have built into the culture the companies. Not a lot of senior leaders subscribe to that kind of belief. So, yeah. So, I think, yeah, it’s one of those things that’s been hard wired to me. That’s why I loved my talk in IIEX last year, “Innovating Like A Five Year Old,” because everything that I’m sharing with you right now is my own personal reflection, also. It’s something that I did when I was younger. Now that I am older because of all this business considerations and how I was trained in my MBA, I need to, you know, ensure that relationships are preserved, we need to have a balanced scorecard. We need to look at the short term versus the long-term financial stability of the companies. There are other considerations that get in the way of me doing that, but my Heaven and Earth, really, is being [laugh] able to just talk to people and explain with things, and then really finding new solutions, and then having one foot in the future, to be honest, and then living the present as well with it.

Karen: As you’re speaking, I’m sitting here thinking, you know, “Yes, my heaven and earth was also—has always been, like, the exploration,” category exploration, that’s probably my favorite work that I was able to do, you know, where it’s like, let’s just talk to people about skincare, for example. Let’s just talk to people with very dry skin and find out what their life is like. And, you know, and some of the stories that would come out when you really just seek to understand categorical usage, some of the best work that I’ve ever done because you’re just getting to know people at a very different level, and it opens your mind up to what’s possible, right? Like, what if we did this, and what if we did this, and imagine we could solve this need? Or imagine if we addressed this pain point. Like, all of the possibilities that feed innovation at organizations come from just exploring a space. So yes, I love that you brought that up. Thank you.

Val: Have I shared the story to you also, Karen, I wanted to share a story because this is a pivotal moment in my career. And in my first few weeks in P&G, actually a long, long time ago, as part of our onboarding, we were sent to consumer homes. So, I was actually asked to basically follow one housewife in the Philippines for a full day from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. and really just understand their habits, what they do. And at that time, I was basically the products researcher for the laundry detergents. And I haven’t really washed my own clothes before that. I had [laugh] other people doing it for me. My mom is probably the only expert in laundry detergents in our home. So, I never knew anything about laundry detergents, right? So, that was quite nerve wracking and quite interesting for me, also. I think the concern for me was, I’m going to a tier three consumers. It’s like a quite a poor community, also, places in the Philippines, I haven’t been before. So, they put me there. Obviously I have someone also with me, making sure that I’m safe, at least for the whole day, and basically just talking to the lady about, you know, her life, her aspirations for her kids, and then going back into the category, why white clothes are so important for her and her kids, and what she does actually to make sure that she gives her best. A couple of things that struck me there is that I realized at that moment in time—and I didn’t even know about jobs to be cut at that time—so when she said she wanted the clothes to be completely white, the reason why she said she wanted that, and she will spend a third of her daily income just to get laundry detergent to make that happen is to make sure that her kids are proud of her. Because the only thing that stands out in school in the Philippines—because in the Philippines, they wear white uniforms, also in public schools—the only thing that stands out that will make them really proud of her is to be noticed by the teacher and their friends that their clothes look brand new, even though they’re old. And that for me, like, stuck really, really hard in my head because, one, firstly, it’s not just about making clothes whiter; it’s about giving hope to this poor housewife, right, and then giving her kids hope also, and that became the gel that connects the whole family. And that’s why I feel like I have to find that mission also in everything that I do. So, going back to our previous conversation, I think it’s one of the things that I’m starting to realize about myself also is, I can’t motivate myself if I cannot find that mission or purpose in what I’m doing. So yeah, that’s why the things that I’m doing, I’m very intentional because I love doing it, and because I’m doing that, it creates some kind of an impact somehow with other people as well.

Karen: Yeah. And you know, you mentioned having that kind of innate curiosity. My guess is, when you—I’ve done a lot of in-homes and ethnographies in the course of my career, as well, in lots of different categories, and I always approached each one, like, with a curiosity of, what am I going to learn in this person’s home? Or, what am I going to learn from this person as we drive? I mean, you know, just you know things, whether it’s even if it’s an in-store visit, or I’ve been in the back of the house at restaurants, and I’ve done a lot of really great ethnographic research, but every single day, it’s what am I going to learn? Like, I can’t wait to find out what it is I’m going to learn that’s new and different for me. And culturally, I remember learning that certain South American, Latin American homes, when a guest was coming, they wanted their home to smell like cleaning products. That was like—that meant that they had taken all of this time to clean their home, right? So, when a guest comes to their house, they want it to smell like cleaning products. Whereas, you know, here in the US, for instance, we’re always trying to—we want it smelled just like flowers, [laugh] you know? [crosstalk 00:28:45], you know. We want people to come in and just say, your house smells good. But certain cultures, they want it to smell like they have really cleaned.

Val: Really cleaned. 

Karen: And I remember thinking about that, thinking like that is so interesting. What an interesting job. The job is to communicate that I cared so much, that I have cleaned really deep for you. Anyway, never forgotten that, these things that you learn about people. And I know that it’s my curiosity, also, that drove that. So, good stuff. Let’s talk about jobs to be done because I think it’s so important. It’s probably one of the main things that we do in the CPG world, right, when we’re doing the work that we do is trying to identify, what are the jobs that need to be done? But you also have a framework that you work within. So, how can you share a little bit about your knowledge of jobs to be done and how you implemented it work?

Val: Well, jobs to be done show differently in the different companies I was in, but I think the framework that I shared is something that’s shared across all of them. Before going to that, let me first kind of share one really important thing, which is something I teach everyone as well in the companies that I was in. So, an insight or a job to be done is not data, right? So, just because you heard somebody say this, or you’ve seen a consumer do that, or you saw this in the store with competitors doing it, that is not a job to be done. That’s not an insight. So, I just want to put it there because I think that’s something that is a misnomer as well, with a lot of people I speak to. So, a job to be done, the framework that I kind of subscribe to is really understanding the what. So, the what is, what you’ve seen, what’s that new thing, novel thing, that’s making you take a second look, and you haven’t seen it before. So, just to make it really interesting, so the breakthrough kind of observations for me are the ones that make you stop and really think, what’s happening here? And when you know that’s something that’s happening that’s new, for example, so that’s, like, what I saw. So, why are you spending five—one third—five pesos of your daily income on just cleaning your clothes? Because you still have bills to pay, you have food to eat, and it doesn’t fit the kind of numbers that you have to manage during the day. So, that is a really interesting for me. That’s the one. The why is the really crucial one, as in that’s where you start connecting the life with the category, right? So, it’s the emotions, the motivations, the aspirations that go behind that behavior that you’ve seen. So, it’s a lot of whys that I’ve asked also, and it finally boiled down to, “My family is important to me, and that’s why I need them to feel proud of me as a mom.” That’s the why behind that. So, obviously that’s not enough. So, there’s a but as well, right? So, what’s the tension? What’s getting in the way of them fulfilling that need that they have, and that aspiration that they have? And the but really is, even though she’s spending $5, it’s still way below what she wants, is the gold standard of why, [laugh] right? So interestingly, also, during the conversation that I had with this person—it’s just n1; it’s not even a quantitative study of 200—she just told me that for her, a white shirt is something that shines, and it’s brilliant looking with a bluish tint because the lighting is not so strong, as well, in those houses and communities, and basically, the light of the sun helps the white shirt to almost be look, like, radiant right outside the house. And that became kind of an inspiration for innovations, also, to look at those agents that will make the white look bluish in tint. It’s a small formulation improvement, but it makes a huge difference in the way they look at the results and the way, kind of, the emotions are extracted from there. So, that was the ‘so what?’ Coming out of opportunity. So really, for me, it’s just a very simple ‘what,’ ‘why,’ ‘but,’ and ‘so what?’

Karen: Very nice. Very nice. Yeah, and I love that. And thinking with my, you know, with my mother heart, oh how wonderful for her that her children can literally shine, which is, you know, another goal of that I think most mothers have is they want their children to—they always want their children to look good in the world. And yes, she wants them to be proud of her, and also it comes with that just that feeling that she must get, the pride that she must feel when she sees her children shining. So, fun work. I wish I was doing that project with you [laugh].

Val: [laugh]. I miss those days, actually, when I’m there with a consumer doing that.

Karen: I know, I know. I think about that a lot because when I joined Greenbook, I kind of put my researcher hat on the shelf, you know, and don’t get into people’s homes the way I used to, for sure. So, I miss it, too. Those were good days. But hopefully you’re empowering your team to go out there and do some similar work. So, it’s not all AI, right? Sometimes you need to just get out there—

Val: No, no [laugh].

Karen: Let’s talk about that real quick because you did also—full disclosure—you joined our title sponsor at IIEX APAC, Bolt, on stage as well. And they are an AI-based qual platform. So, talk to me. What’s your takeaway on where we are with AI, as somebody who really loves getting in home and having these authentic conversations with people. How are you balancing that with AI technology?

Val: I think we’ve talked a lot about it also in terms of the modern mandatories of efficiency, speed, scalability, also, so being able to scale up and quantify qual observations. Those are—you cannot argue against those needs anymore. Gone are the days ten years ago when you say, “I’m just doing a qual. I cannot do a quantification of that,” right? They expect you to be able to do that now, obviously, with the same speed and the cost of doing a CLT that you can run in a week’s time. So, I think those are things where AI really plays a huge role for me, at least right now. Obviously, I’m really excited about what else it can do in the future, in terms of digging deeper into human lives, observationally, looking at the surroundings, and being able to extract insights from there as well. It’s far from that right now. I know there are specific technologies that can do that, but they haven’t been able to integrate that into one solution yet. But I’ve always been excited about AI, also, allowing me to do more with less. So, I’ve experimented with similar tools when I was in boundaries more increasingly now when I was in Mondelēz, more recently now with Sanofi because they’re really encouraging everyone with a challenger mindset to embrace AI and embrace technology to be able to do our jobs much better and much more efficiently. So, really excited about doing it, and that’s why, when I had this opportunity to do it with Bolt, with the research in Japan—and again, full disclosure, I had in homes done also in Japan because I didn’t know the consumers in Japan, and I felt like I don’t want to be a fraud representing a market that I haven’t had face time with. So, that’s something that I insisted I do as well. So, I flew to Japan to do other projects and really spend time with I think it was three consumers that we were able to meet at that time, and that was amazing. It was really mind-opening. Simple things like, I didn’t realize the Japanese consumers—well, have you seen the shelves in Japan where they have all these fancy boxes for OTC products? They have gold foils, and they have really good graphics, really strong materials, and we spend a lot of money doing that, but when it comes to the consumers’ home, they throw away all of that. And what they do is they stack their sleeves together, and then they use a rubber band to stack them together and put them in another box, also. It’s just easier for them to manage the inventory, apparently, that way. So, this is a common behavior that I’ve seen I will probably never had the opportunity to see if I just relied on the AI qual that I did because I had very specific questions. I had very specific objectives when doing that with bulk. So that, for me, also allowed me to contextualize what the AI work is giving me. So, it gives me a bit more depth in terms of what I wanted to understand, in terms of the sensory preferences of the consumers there, but I also know the why because I understand kind of the larger context in which our categories operate in. I also spent time in the shelf. So, I went to several stores to see what kind of shopping experience our consumers have. And I wouldn’t replace that with just relying on AI to tell me through ChatGPT that this is how they behave in at home, or what we can see in the shop. I think there’s a lot more power with personal experience and living it that helps me appreciate more the data I’m getting from these technologies.

Karen: Yeah, and probably not only validating the data that you’re seeing then, right? You can rely on it because you have first experience with, yes, this checks out. You know this passes the test based on what I know from my own lived experience as well. So, I think that’s great advice for people, actually, is not just to experiment with the technology because not everybody might have that mandate, right, but if you can, and you’re able to, and your company supports it, experiment with new methods and tools, but also validate what you’re doing as you build your confidence in some of these new tools. So, I think that’s actually great advice that you didn’t necessarily know you were giving. So, thank you [laugh].

Val: Well, I did give it with the A/B testing. I do a lot of A/B testing also, especially with experimental methodologies, just to be sure that I could pass the red-face test when I present these findings and data to the stakeholders.

Karen: Yeah. Cool. So, before we wrap, I do want to get to just kind of, very high level, the talk that you gave last week about future-back research and the idea of, yes, we know there’s an art and science to research in general, but talk to us about future-back real quick, and what that current mindset that you have really enabled people to achieve.

Val: Yeah. I think I’ve already established that I thrive in ambiguity, and I love the uncertainty of those experimental methodologies. And I think future-back research, future-back innovation, and the research you do with it is really pushing you too far in terms of the comfort zone, especially for those more traditional researchers who spent a lot of time in the now, validating, and things like that, right? Now, future-back research is essentially imagining what the future looks like, not really predicting it. So, it let me just clarify that: it’s not about predicting what the future will look like; it’s imagining what it could look like, and then looking at all the different scenarios that might happen, and then kind of working your way back to understand what you need to do now to be able to prepare yourself whatever scenario happens in the future. So, I have done that in Mondelēz. I’m trying to do it also in my current job right now by using trends, for example, understanding where we are heading, helping us inform pipelines and for on the future, and then helping us decide now what we need to do to prepare for that future. The other discomfort there is the one question I’ve been asking my partners when I first embark on this project is, how do we talk to people in the future, [laugh] right? So, one thing that I’ve shared as well, in the talk last week is, the people of the future actually exist now, and they’re the minority. These are the people who are super users we call them, using categories in a different way, they have needs that are really way involved than us. So again, in the space of snacks, it’s people who are gradually replacing their meals with snacks because of the convenience and all the other things that go with snacking during no times because of our busy lifestyles. Everyone’s heading to that anyway. I see myself doing it from time-to-time. And there are more people like that now. So, if we can just find who they are and understand what they’re compromising right now, that’s a great indication already of needs that are going to be more prevalent in the future, and we can start testing with them as well. So, it’s really just imagining what the future look like, preparing ourselves for that as an organization. Yes, there’s a lot of ambiguity. It’s leadership 101 to be able to manage all of that ambiguity as well, but it’s really exciting because you’re basically talking to people from the future when you do this research.

Karen: Yeah. And I think talking to these pro consumers, or extreme consumers, these, like, super users, whoever they may be, that are already on trends that you are tracking certainly sounds like fun work, too. So, you make the job of a researcher sound really fun, even though I do know it’s heavily analytical and data-driven at times [laugh]. So, good for you to be able to balance that [laugh].

Val: [laugh]. We just have to choose our battles, right? Pick our battles, and really spend more time on the things we enjoy, and less time on those we don’t, and have the people also help us with those parts of the job that we don’t enjoy.

Karen: Oh, my goodness, Val, I could talk to you for hours, and I have to be mindful of time here. So, I’m going to ask you this one last question before we wrap. But you know, at Greenbook, one of the things we always focus on is the future of insights, right? That’s our tagline. It’s above everything we do. In your opinion, what do you think the future of insights looks like?

Val: Mmm. The future of insights. I would go down the route of saying it’s about technology, it’s about AI, but it’s heavily discussed already. I don’t think that’s—that is one component, and that’s an enabler of insights in the future. Maybe I will say that the future of insights is happening now. It has happened before as well. It’s always been the same, which is, it’s all about making sure that we connect at the very individual level, and understand the deeper whys behind what consumers are saying and what they’re doing right now, even more so now in the world of social media and, kind of, a different persona and presence that we have online versus what really are as a person. I think the challenge becomes even greater to really understand what those innate human motivators are, and as a researcher, I’m really excited with understanding that and using everything at our disposal, humans, and technology, and computers, and software, to be able to do that.

Karen: Well said, sir. That was—for me, putting you on the spot like that, that was very well said. Well, articulated. Thank you so— 

Val: Thank you.

Karen: Very much. Anything you wish we had talked about that we didn’t make time for?

Val: We will have another podcast for that, Karen [laugh].

Karen: I know. We’ll do that. We’ll do that. So, thank you—

Val: Thank you.

Karen: —so much for this. What a pleasure.

Val: Thank you so much.

Karen: And listeners, that’s our show for today. Thank you for tuning in. Thanks to our editor, Big Bed Audio, the team at Greenbook that helps us produce these episodes. We will see you next time for another episode of the Greenbook Podcast. Bye-bye, now.