How to Serve on a Board with Karen McFarlane (Kaye Media)

Karen Lynch sits down with Karen McFarlane, Founder of Kaye Media and longtime fractional CMO, to unpack what board service really looks like beyond the shiny LinkedIn headline. From her early career pivot (HBO home video by day, creative “startup” projects by night) to leading through uncertainty, Karen McFarlane shares how board work can sharpen leadership, expand networks, and create impact beyond pure business-as-usual.

The conversation demystifies advisory vs. working vs. governing boards, why trust is the real operating system between a board and CEO, and how volunteering can signal character and capability to hiring managers. If you’re considering board service or building a board for your startup, this episode is a practical roadmap with purpose baked in.

Key Discussion Points:

• Fractional leadership: why embedded CMOs bring “portable perspective” across companies
• Board types decoded: advisory vs. working vs. governing (and what each actually does)
• The board–CEO relationship: trust, clarity of roles, and constructive challenge
• Board service as career fuel: networking with a job-to-do, resume signal, and leadership reps
• Building a startup board: skills-first recruiting, avoiding “yes-people,” and planning board evolution

Resources & Links:

• Kaye Media (Karen McFarlane’s firm)
• AMA New York (board + community)
• Hudson Valley Credit Union: Board of Directors overview
• NACD Blue Ribbon Commission report on board–CEO trust
• Columbia Business School Exec Ed: Corporate Governance Program
• Karen’s LinkedIn newsletter: Better On Purpose
• MVP podcast: Momentum Now

You can reach out to Karen McFarlane on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Karen McFarlane for being our guest. Thanks also to our production team and our editor at Big Bad Audio.

Transcript

Lynch: Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Greenbook Podcast. I’m Karen Lynch, excited to be hosting today with somebody who has become near and dear to my heart recently. So, I’m very excited to be interviewing Karen McFarlane on this episode. She is the founder of Kaye Media, fractional CMO as well. I know her because she serves on the board of the New York chapter of the American Marketing Association, who some of you may know actually is the parent company of Greenbook. So, it’s an honor to have met her in that role for, you know, several years at several different New York AMA events. And we’re going to be digging into kind of board roles in general because she holds more than just that one. So, before we get too deep into any kind of background, I would love to invite you, Karen, to say hello and introduce yourself in a way that’s most comfortable to you. It’s good to have you here.

McFarlane: Thank you, Karen. So, first of all, I’m going to have to get used to saying my name, which is your name, right? [laugh].

Lynch: Yeah, right. I know, I know. And sometimes I feel like we should have a little, like, caveat that’s like, we’re not those kinds of Karens.

McFarlane: Exactly [laugh]. 

Lynch: We’re the good kind, I promise [laugh].

McFarlane: But no, thank you. Thank you for having me. I am so excited to be here and to have this crossover between AMA New York and Greenbook. I’m not sure if we’ve done that before, but you know, if this is the inaugural time. I’m even more excited, yay [laugh]. But yes, you described me perfectly. I’m a fractional CMO. I’ve been doing so for 14 years. I’m the founder of Kaye Media, and you know, we work with high growth, industrious organizations to help them amplify their impact in market. Primarily, we work with B2B, but we also do some B2C stuff as well, and you know, it’s just about having fun, but also getting clients to a place where they’re better than before.

Lynch: Yeah, yeah. And I mean sometimes that gap you fill is actually really a great opportunity for organizations to rethink how they used to do things, plan how they’re doing it in the future, so it must be very rewarding work for you as well.

McFarlane: You know, absolutely. I love working with different companies and then bringing those insights to different companies, right? So, as a fractional—and this area has actually exploded, I think, in the past five years. I’ve been doing it for 14 years before it was even called fractional, where I’m essentially this embedded resource within an organization. Typically, I’ll work with startups who are trying to jumpstart their marketing departments, or mid-sized organizations that may have some junior talent, but they need more strategic oversight to grow, right, because they reached a different plateau, and I’ve also worked with larger organizations to fill some gaps within their talent pipeline there. And I think the most critical thing in that role as a fractional is that when you work with different companies and different people, you gain a perspective that is varied and rich that you can bring to that organization and share those insights in a way that wouldn’t happen if someone was there for, like, four, five, six, seven, years. Now, that being said, most of my engagements, they last pretty long, right, like, in order to see impact. Yes, I’ll do some six month projects or engagements, but most of them are typically one to four years. So, I’m actually growing with the company and bringing a lot of perspective with me.

Lynch: Your journey, too—I’m laughing just because when I said something, you know, Friday night where I was like, wait, your background wasn’t fitting with what we were sort of talking about. I’m like, “Weren’t you—wait, weren’t you doing something else at some point that was a little bit more almost like”—you know, I think I had said, like, kind of celebrity media, and you were like, “Well…” so like, I must have heard a little nugget back in the day. Anyway, you corrected things for me on Friday night, but I think your background is extraordinary because you didn’t necessarily start off thinking that was your vision, right? So, what were some of the, like, stops on your career journey that you think shaped you to becoming the, you know, amazing CMO that you are now?

McFarlane: Yeah, so—well, thank you—so you know, when I was younger, I wanted to be in film, television and music, and that’s what I started to pursue in college. And when I graduated, I graduated from NYU with my Bachelor of Science, and then went on and stayed there for grad school, focusing on the media arts area. I kind of made that up because it was part of Gallatin, which allowed you to create your own [laugh] your own program. But you know, when I was starting to look for work in the field, I realized that how I would have to enter the field was as, like, some sort of production assistant. And no shade to any of the production assistants, but that meant, at the time, way back then, to getting coffee or maybe even picking up somebody’s dry cleaning. And, you know, while I like to be of service, that was not the kind of service that I was thinking of [laugh]. So, I took a job at HBO, actually in the Home Video Division, and I started off as an executive assistant; I got promoted in three months to a marketing associate, which is a little bit of an elevated role. And all the while, I was, on the side, doing a lot of things within the music film industry, that included running an independent record label, putting on a conference for independent artists, music artists, also doing a film festival. These were essentially all startups, although that wasn’t the term that I was using at the time. We did a television show that I think rivaled Video Music Box, if people are of that age, they know it. And so, there was a lot of things I was doing in addition to my, you know, quote-unquote, “Day job.” And when the VP of Marketing went out on maternity leave, I actually picked up a lot of her responsibilities, at least the ones that didn’t require executive, like, oversight, right? And I can’t remember if it was when she came back or shortly before, I did ask for a promotion to, like, marketing manager—or actually was assistant marketing manager. And I was told, you have to prove yourself first. And so, that didn’t really sit with me really well because I felt like, you know, I had—

Lynch: You had been proving yourself.

McFarlane: —I’d been doing it, right? I’d been there for a few years, I had been proving myself, so that, you know, opened the door for me looking for a new opportunity. I took a job with a startup. I hated it. I mean, it increased my salary 33% but I hated it and left it after three months and decided to, like, double down into all of those extracurricular things that I was doing. And I did for a year, but you know what, it didn’t pay the bills [laugh]. And so—

Lynch: Those pesky bills, man. Those bills get in the way [laugh]. 

McFarlane: Exactly. You know, the glamorous life actually requires capital, which, you know, as a young person, I really didn’t have, and so I had to put that on pause. And I started consulting and teaching at Baruch College’s Zicklin School of Business, and that’s how I kind of fell into consulting. You know, my background—because I was in the marketing department at HBO—was marketing, the new job was marketing, all of the things that I was doing on the side really involved, like marketing and operations, right, so it just kind of fell into that in a way. And I’d just been consulting until I—one consulting job turned into an actual full-time job. And then when I gleefully got laid off, I decided to niche down into B2B, and here I am. And then I just really focused and grew into this fractional CMO.

Lynch: There’s so much I want to talk about, and of course, we have this whole, you know, we have this whole agenda of things to talk about, but I just want to call out the fact that you said when you were, kind of, gleefully, gleefully downsized, right, from a position—we’ll just use those words—I think that’s a great framing for people who are experiencing tough times with work. Like, sometimes there’s a great opportunity around the corner and you know, if you can hold on to hope that, you know, it actually could be a blessing in disguise. I know that’s really hard, so I don’t want to, you know, minimize how anybody might be feeling if they’ve been in tough times, and a lot of our audience, you know, has had some tough times career-wise, but doors close and other doors open, and you just have to stay the course, right? So, that’s sort of my public service announcement [laugh]. 

McFarlane: Absolutely. And I was—you know, just for clarity for the audience, I was thinking about leaving anyway. I had set a date for myself to leave this full-time job, one, because I realized I was just better at consulting and jumping around, and I just kind of outgrew it, in a way. And I say gleefully because one month before the date that I was planning to leave anyway, I got laid off. So, it actually gave me money [laugh] and space to now focus on what I really wanted to do. So, I was in a very unique situation, and other people got laid off as well, and they were not in that situation, and so, yeah, you know, that’s where my glee came from. But I totally respect the fact that that’s not everybody. I was just lucky.

Lynch: Yeah. I think that what’s wonderful when I talk to people at, like, their career journeys, and we kind of see, like, and I always say there is no one career path in this industry, and by this industry, you know, the thinking mindfully about the relationship between marketing and, of course, insights, which are, you know, deeply, deeply woven into the fabric of each other’s roles, right? So, it’s really a dual industry focus at this point for this conversation. But there’s many ways to get there, and many people can start off in one world and then kind of just morph into another, and I love how you turned all of those experiences that you had to just keep building and building, to the point where you start serving on boards. So, let me transition there for a minute because, as I’ve mentioned, [laugh] you could talk about all the different positions you’ve had at the New York AMA, but you know, it’s no small thing. But you’re currently, like, you know, the director, or on the board of directors, or the director or executive director of the Hudson Valley Credit Union, so that’s very exciting. You can clarify exactly what your role there is. But also you’ve had involvement in an organization called MVP, which I’m very curious about, Momentum and Value for People of Color. And you know, you’re a certified board director, and you’ve gotten, like, kind of certifications in executive education and corporate governance. So like, you are an expert in, kind of, being on boards, I would say, and there’s a lot to learn from you, so we’re going to go there. But what first drew you into serving on boards?

McFarlane: I thought I could use my talents and expertise for, like, more than just… capitalism, [laugh].

Lynch: Yeah.

McFarlane: So, I want to do something that, I think, positively affected the community. And actually my very, very first board was with an organization called Jack and Jill of America, which is a children’s organization; it’s dedicated to providing opportunities for black youth. And I served on the local chapter board as the historian, and then also the technology chair for, like, two or three years. And you know, that was where I got the bug first. And I believe after that, that was AMA New York. I actually joined AMA New York just because I wanted access to some resources they had and it felt cheaper to just do that and leverage their templates than to create it myself. And I had personal goals, which was to just kind of expand my networking and things of that nature. So, when they reached out to be on membership committee, I said yes, and then just got more deeply involved, and eventually became president. I still sit on the board to this day. But I think that was also the same thing. I had that personal goal, but it was also in service to the community in a different way, using all of this, you know, this acumen that I have to help others be great marketers. And for clarity, for the Hudson Valley Credit Union, I sit on the board as a board of director, I also chair the compensation and benefits committee at this time.

Lynch: That right. Yep.

McFarlane: Yeah. And their purpose and impact is really about fostering financial freedom for the community. So, if you kind of see a trend there, that’s what that’s about [laugh].

Lynch: Yeah, no, I can relate on some level. I had joined—the boards—I’ve been on, nonprofit boards, you know, volunteer boards are the two that I’ve been on. One was for an organization called the Creative Education Foundation. I sat on the board of directors for several years, and it was really, you know, combination of advisory board and working board, where we, you know, we kind of gave support and advice to the executive director, but around kind of, again, a nonprofit who was trying to bring creative problem-solving methods to people that didn’t have them, whether it was in schools or in communities, it was a little bit of both. And then recently, you know, serving on the board of the Insights Career Network, which just earned nonprofit status this week, actually—

McFarlane: Nice. 

Lynch: When we’re having this conversation. And you know, that is in service in the insights industry. So, it is in service, right, so that part of what you’re saying, I can relate to. But you went this extra mile, right? You not only, kind of, join these boards and then say yes, when they [laugh] you know, you start raising—you say, “Okay, yes,” when they start asking you to do more, which is the way. But you went and got this, sort of, executive education in corporate governance, right, from Columbia Business School. So, you know, you didn’t also, you know, just sign up for your local; you went and got it from a stellar organization. Talk to me about that. Like, what drove your interest in that, and what does that credential—how did that kind of, how did that evolve for you?

McFarlane: Yeah, so, you know, with all the board roles that I’ve had, I think the Hudson Valley Credit Union is on a completely different level. It is a financial institution, you know, that is not a bank, but has similar, you know, responsibilities, and lives up to the same—has to live up to the same regulations, compliance, all of those things because we’re managing members’ money, just like a JPMorganChase or, you know, whatever. So, there’s a different level of competency that you have to build in order to be an effective board member on a board like that. So, while it is a not-for-profit, a financial cooperative, right, it is very much a highly serious organization. It’s a billion dollar institution at this point. So, you know when you’re a board member, you want to make sure you have all the information necessary, not just technically for the organization, but also that you can be an effective board member. And how do I do that? How do I upskill myself? And so, I’m constantly looking for professional development tools to help me with that. As you mentioned, I got the certification for the National Association of Corporate Directors, and I took this corporate governance course along with other ones, but kind of to summarize it, I wanted to make sure that I think that—sorry, let me back up. The governance program itself is about making sure that directors can help their organization run properly, ethically, and compliantly. But the other, kind of, unspoken part about it is it’s all about relationship building as well, right? And so, you have to have a really strong relationship with the board and the CEO, right? Those two things have to sync. But the organization also talks a lot about, you know, the differences in types of board setups, right? So, whether it’s public, private or a nonprofit board—and you mentioned this—whether this is an advisory board, a working board, or one that is strategic oversight. So, all of that, it has different nuances and regulations based on, like, you know, what the organization is, where they’re located, et cetera, but it’s all about, you know, being able to ask the right questions at the right time and engage in constructive challenge to ensure you’re best serving, like, the members, the customers, the shareholders, whoever your stakeholders are.

Lynch: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let’s take a moment and, kind of, talk about the differences in some of those because I realized, like, you know, as I sort of say, like, advisory versus working versus governance, some people may not know that—they might be able to deduce, but let’s spell it out for people.

McFarlane: Sure.

Lynch: And what do you say the difference between the types of boards that you’ve been on and how they operate, how would you define those differences?

McFarlane: So, an advisory board, for example, may be, like, a board or a council that does not have any fiduciary responsibilities, right? So, if the government comes knocking, right, they’re good, right? A working board does have fiduciary responsibilities, but they are actually working on the business, but also has strategic oversight over the business, which is a particular challenge. AMA New York is a working board, for example. And a board like the Hudson Valley Credit Union is a governing board, which is responsible for strategic oversight over what the management is executing. So, as you can imagine, it’s a whole organization, it’s got a CEO, it’s got an executive team, they’re executing all the work. We are focused on things like strategic planning, compliance, risk management, finance, audits, right? We’re making sure that the organization is running properly from a long—and also, we’re also thinking about long-term goals and how the day-to-day is feeding into what we want to happen tomorrow.

Lynch: Now, how does that work when you’re not really involved in the day-to-day, right? You don’t work for the organization by day. How do you—how do you—how does that work [laugh]?

McFarlane: It works really well because I don’t have to do anything internal day-to-day [laugh]. 

Lynch: [laugh].

McFarlane: But no. Um… so you know the board… at the core of this entire relationship is trust. The board is effectively the boss of the CEO, right? So, if you just think about any organization, you expect your employees to do what they got to do, right? We provide general direction, key KPIs that are important to us to measure that direction, we want constant communication, we want to know about your challenges, we want to remove barriers, we want to help you do a great job. But we also have to fundamentally trust you to do that job and the CEO and the management team have to trust that the board understands what’s going on and the unique challenges that they face. They have to be able to come to you and say—not just that things are going great. We all love to hear that—but when things are not going as planned, or when there’s something unexpected that might shift some of the dynamics and the metrics that we both agreed to, or if they want to take a certain risk that was not planned for in the original budget or the original timeline or they want to accelerate something. They need to be able to come to you and explain that to you, and not just get approval, but to get perspective, right? The CEO job is a very lonely job. They’re driving strategy, they’re driving culture, risk management, all the technology innovations, all of that, performance, and they have to deliver because if the CEO doesn’t deliver, the board is going to be like, “What’s up? What’s going on?” But if you’re having this meaningful dialog and conversation on an ongoing basis, you already know what’s up and you can help the CEO do what we all want him to do in the organization. As a matter of fact, in the National Association of Corporate Directors, they have a blue ribbon report.

Lynch: What’s in that?

McFarlane: I think it’s called, like building, like, a high tr—I think it’s literally high tru—“Building a High Trust Relationship Between the Board and the CEO,” and they have… am I going to remember? They have, like, a nine-step process around how to do that. And I’ll summarize it. I think I can summarize it in, like, three categories. Like, one is defining the roles and responsibilities so that everyone knows how to work together and who’s accountable. And then it’s about communicating early and often, and, like, reinforcing positive behaviors. One of the things that’s really important is prioritizing the CEOs well-being because all of those things that they have to do—and I said it was very lonely at the top, right—that is especially important. And the last one is assessing the board’s performance and making sure that each individual that’s sitting there is continuing to drive value. 

Lynch: Yeah, yeah. It’s so interesting because, again, I put my hat on my first board position, I remember the first board member meeting I went to, and we—this was pre-Covid, we were meeting in person regularly—so you know, I show up at the first board meeting, and then there’s this period of time at the end where the executive director is like, “Okay, now it’s when I leave.” And I remember thinking, like, “Oh, wait, you’re leaving?” And then somebody else said, very tongue in cheek, “Yeah, this is when we talk about her.” And I was like, “Wait, what is happening?” Like, I was very confused because it wasn’t necessarily explained to me when I was onboarded this dynamic of, we need to, actually—they kind of report to us. And we needed to discuss their job performance, and we needed to talk about, how are we failing her or how is she—you know, like, how can we do better to further support her and her staff? You know, we kind of had to really, like—it was very eye-opening for me at that moment. I was like, all right, now I understand what this means— 

McFarlane: Can you imagine?

Lynch: —this relationship. I know. It was like, a team—we all have managers, and then it’s like, this was a group of, like, 12 people that she reports to, technically. And I’m like, “That is a lot.”

McFarlane: Yes.

Lynch: Anyway, big paradigm shift for me to understand that, again, the executive director, that’s some pressure.

McFarlane: Yeah. And that point that you made, it’s 12 people or whatever the number is, right, that they have to report to, in more sophisticated organizations, there’s, like, a—they call it a lead director, right? Usually, that’s, I want to say, more sophisticated. Let me correct that. Public organizations will have, like, a lead director. And that is intentionally there to make sure all of those voices are funneled through one voice because it is very difficult to have 12 different bosses, right? Everybody fundamentally wants something different, and because you’re not working on the business day-to-day, right, like, you don’t have—you legitimately don’t have that full perspective and everybody comes from a different place. You may have been brought onto the board because of certain skill sets, like, you may be, you know CTO, right? So, your lens is different versus the person who may be an attorney, right? So, all of that is very difficult to manage… manage up, essentially. That’s what the CEO has to do. And then to your point, when you have these executive sessions at the end and they have to leave, the anxiety they must feel that right now I’m not in the room and they’re talking about me or my staff or something that I’m doing, and I can’t defend myself if something is said negatively. So, it’s a very lonely role.

Lynch: Yeah, yeah, and that was very eye opening for me, and that entire experience was as sort of my first foray into being on a board and what it meant. And, you know, then, you know, of course, empathy again for, at the time, that executive director, who I was like, “Oh.” You know? And it was really great, and I think that good to see, important to see, brought a new perspective for me in how these organizations are run. So, highly recommend for people—you know, I don’t know what advice you would have—I highly recommend people join local nonprofit boards to start because I think that’s really helpful when you get to that place in your career where you’re chasing something, right? What advice would you have for people who might be looking to get involved? 

McFarlane: I mean, that’s absolutely right: join a nonprofit board, right? And, of course, there’s different types, there are different levels of sophistication, and they are also, as we just talked about, advisory versus working versus, you know, oversight. AMA New York is a working board. And it actually welcomes younger people in, right, to kind of build that board development. I actually sat as president of the American Marketing Association’s National Professional Chapters Council. And that council is responsible for developing chapter leaders and helping them run thriving chapters for all of the chapters within—all the professional chapters under AMA’s banner. And you know, one of the—we had to revamp a lot of the programming, and one of the major gaps was governance, so I actually created a governance curriculum, a self-paced curriculum for, you know, chapter leaders to go through. So, that just kicked off last year a little bit, I think last year. Wait, we’re still in this year. This year—[laugh]. 

Lynch: We’re still—we have about two more weeks and that’s it. Kicked off in 2025. 

McFarlane: May. Like, May, maybe, all right? So, you know, hopefully people will cycle through that at some time and just kind of get a different perspective on what their role is because, as I said, they’re mostly working on the business. It’s really hard to have that strategic oversight.

Lynch: And I think people need that clarity, too. So, you know, the working board, you know, really, you’re raising your hand to do things a lot, you know? Things because they don’t have, necessarily, the, you know, staff members to handle it. So, what are some of the other, like, roles? And we can stick with New York AMA because that’s, you know, close to home for both of us, obviously. But what are some of the, like, kind of, jobs you may have if you are on a working board, like that one? 

McFarlane: Yeah. And also, I mean working nonprofit boards, a lot of them, like, if you join, say, I talked about that youth organization, right, or you know, maybe even, like, one of the health organizations, associations and things of that nature. It’s all kind of the same. But they want you to do something, so whatever your field is, [laugh]. Ideally, they would be recruiting you because you have something they need. So, if it were me, they might want my marketing prowess, right? They might want access to my connections. Many of them are give-gets, right? So, you have to raise some funds. Either you give it or you get it in some form or fashion every single year, so you have to be prepared for that. There is definitely a notion of pay to play. If you, like, look on LinkedIn and you see, “Hey, board roles,” look at the fine print [laugh]. They want you to contribute. And that’s fine too, right? If you’re a giver, you dedicate your funds to [crosstalk 00:28:59]— 

Lynch: Yeah, if you have the means, and this is an organization that’s important to you, you know, you might have a minimum donation. 

McFarlane: Exactly. Exactly for AMA New York in particular, you know, we’re set up sort of around committees, so communications, programming, like, event logistics, per se, in the Marketing Hall of Fame, which is our flagship event, and other things like that. So, you might want to sit on those committees and bring your expertise there. But it’s not usually just your expertise. It’s some of the periphery things that you may not realize, which is around networking as well. 

Lynch: Yeah, yeah. Let’s talk about that because, again, like, you think about the perk, what does networking look like? So—and why do you think this is so, like, effective as a vehicle? 

McFarlane: Networking is always what you make it. When I started with AMA New York, I was not a good networker. I’m still not a great networker, let’s just be clear [laugh]. But it was something that I wanted to improve. But what I did recognize about myself is, you know, I was not a good networker, but I am better when I have a specific role. So, if I’m in the membership committee, I have to attend events and I have to talk to people about membership. That's easy for me because that’s what I’m charged to do. I have a specific purpose. I’m not the person that if you just show up to an event, I’m going to be, like, “Hey, how you doing?” Da-da-da, right? I actually need another person to do that with me. I’ve learned a lot about myself in this process, right [laugh]? But, you know, a lot of people join for different reasons. Networking is always important. You should always build a network before you need it, so there’s—you don’t have to have a reason. But if you’re looking for a new role, as we just talked about, a lot of people are affected by the economy right now, in recent layoffs, so if you’re looking for a new role, it’s a great opportunity to connect with different people and build that. But also, especially if you’re looking for a new role, volunteering actually helps you fill your resume, fill those gaps. So, you could be working on a particular project or a committee and you are active. Here’s one thing that I want to emphasize to any hiring manager who’s listening. It is actually more telling about a person that they have volunteered and done meaningful work without getting paid than the paid work that they have done. And oftentimes it is viewed as the reverse, and I actually don’t appreciate that [laugh] because—

Lynch: Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Let’s get to that. The qualitative researcher in me is like, “Yes, tell me why.” [laugh] What does that say about someone?

McFarlane: I’m just going to use myself, you know? I served as president for two years. It was not something I could do off the side of my desk. I had to be active. I ran the organization. I ran the business. Now, I run my own business, right, but I ran this business. I had to deal with all of the same things we kind of alluded to before: the culture, the operations, the strategy, the actual programming, things of that nature. And it was all about that relationship-building and getting people to do what they needed to do. You know, I was president 2019 to 2021. Typically, these are one year terms, but—and that’s just how the AMA itself is set up—but before my term ended, March—well, February of 2020, they came back and they said, “Hey, could you stay another year?” I took a month to think about it. In the beginning of March, I said, “Yes.” I was voted in for the second year, which would have started in July 1 again. That was 2020. Two weeks later, the world shut down for Covid, and I was like, “Holy crap. Why did I say yes?” [laugh]. Like, this is horrible. This was not smart. What have I done? What have I done, right? And so, we all—the whole world, went through a pause of we don’t know what to do with ourselves, and then we woke up. And we went from having eight events a year, we just doubled down on virtual. It was like, we’re just going to keep going. ...events here to, like, 44. 

Lynch: Wow.

McFarlane: And by doing that, we opened up opportunity for people, we increased engagement exponentially. Like, we could command a minimum 350 people to a webinar, in some cases 750. And by increasing the opportunity, we increased our revenue streams, we diversified our income, we did things we never had time to do or never thought of before because we had to be in this different space. We had to pivot. And that was an amazing feat. And most of all, we were forced, in that regrouping, to work as teams, and that was something I was working on from before; we were very siloed. And at times I was like, “Why is everyone spending so much time on this? Why am I?” [laugh]. But we did, and it was good work, you know? And it took a lot of us, and it shouldn’t—a lot out of us, and it should not be discounted because it was volunteer. We spent our free time doing it.

Lynch: Yeah, yeah. If you are not—you know, shameless plug for the organization—if you are not on the New York AMA email list, it’s good time to go and sign up [laugh].

McFarlane: Please do.

Lynch: Like, just go right ahead. That email comes in, and I’m always impressed. And you know, we’ve talked before, we’ve talked about that internally here, you know, it is chock full of good, useful, usable content, it’s well put together, and I often, when that comes in, and I have attended, had the privilege—because I live in the New York area—it’s attending some in-person events, and you know, kind of being a part of the organization in my own way, as being, you know, a part of Greenbook. I’m always impressed and I think every single time that I’m, you know, privy to something, is I’m like volunteers, you know? And that impresses me with some associations in the industry that we have that are volunteer-led associations. Absolutely. It is character, like, not shown elsewhere at work, right, when people volunteer to either support an organization, association, nonprofit. Good people show up for these positions. 

McFarlane: Exactly. They could be anywhere else, and they’ve shown up for this.

Lynch: Yeah. So, in your opinion, kind of professional opinion, and then I want to talk about some other things that we planned to talk about, not just these things I’m chucking at you because— 

McFarlane: [laugh]. All good.

Lynch: —I told you this was going to happen, we have a lot of startups who listen up to us, right, and you were kind of talking a little bit about your experience in the past in that space, but some of the, you know, insights startups that are listeners, you know, maybe getting to a place where they’re thinking, you know what, I kind of need a board, that’s sort of a different kind of a board, right, because it’s not a nonprofit board, it’s a for-profit board, but they are assembling. People have said to me, like, you know, “I don’t have a board yet. I’m just starting out.” You know? “And how do I assemble a board?” Like, what are some pro tips that you have for people, based on everything you’ve learned, about, you know, these founders need to start talking about this. What should they be looking for?

McFarlane: They should think about, first, what are their goals and where do they want to be and then back out from there. So if, you know… whatever the goal is, right? Like, and what types of people or skills do I need to fill this board? You should always be skills first, right, so that you can find the right mix of people that are going to help get you there. You shouldn’t necessarily just choose your friends, right, [laugh] which is what happens. Who do I know to be on this board? But again, who are the people with the right skills that are going to do this? You need to start with governance. Like, you really need to start with what are the roles and responsibilities of this board and individuals on this board in relationship to my role as a founder and CEO, right? And you want people in your evaluation process that are not going to be yes people, they are going to provide constructive challenge. Because that’s what’s going to make you better. If you have the luxury of doing so, put aside some funds for professional development for these board members because you want them to be well versed in their role in governance, in some of the different key areas of board leadership. And you’re going to have to, at some point, as you get bigger and better. Just, kind of, start to create that structure from the beginning, even if you’re not filling it exactly. Like, you need to know where you’re going, right? So, not only what is your long-term company growth, but what is your long-term board growth going to look like to support that company needs, right? And while it’s great to have people who are experienced on boards—that’s great, right? That makes it a little bit easier— 

Lynch: Yeah, yeah, sure.

McFarlane: You don’t always have to have that. It’s really about people who are curious, can learn and are willing to learn, can put in the proper time, and that’s why the roles and responsibilities are really important: how often are they going to meet, what are the rules we’re going to live by, things of that nature. You give people the parameters in which to operate and they can fill that gap. I am the compensation and benefits chair. I don’t have an HR background. But I’m smart, I can figure things out, I’ll go and do the work, right, the background work. And I’m not afraid to say, “Hey, I don’t know. Can I get some help with this?” Right? So, you just need people who really want to do good. And to that point, don’t—I said skills first, but I’m talking about, not just—what am I thinking about—the technical, practical skills, but also the—I don’t like using the word soft skills, but I can’t think of a better word [laugh]—

Lynch: I say soft skills [laugh].

McFarlane: I don’t want to do it [laugh]. The other stuff—[laugh]—that always gets pushed to the bottom, but actually is most important. Because people can go learn something, but do they know how to talk to each other? Do they know how to manage conflict between one another? I mean, the biggest issue I have always seen is the conflict piece. People don’t know how to have difficult conversations and it spirals out of control and disrupts everything you’re trying to achieve.

Lynch: Yeah. So, I imagine the ability to know when to, you know, kind of either interrupt a conflict and say, “We’re going to stop this one right now,” or to just plow your way through a conflict, to the ability to navigate that tension, I am sure conflict resolution is a big one. But it brings me to this other question. This other board that you serve on this MVP board, Momentum Value for People of Color, touches on mentorship, kind of, diversity in a community. Tell me a little bit more about that because I think, in my head, what I’m most curious about is the stakes feeling higher on certain boards than they may be, you know? Like, you talked a little bit about, you know, being on the board of the credit union, and there’s financial stakes, right? And then you go to kind of a community organization like this, and there’s, like, human stakes, for lack of a better word there. So, talk to me a little bit about this particular board, and then some of the challenges when people’s lives are kind of in the balance here.

McFarlane: So, the reason I chose to be on that board originally was because it had such a direct connection to an individual, and that if they engaged in this way, it could have such a meaningful impact on their life. And that’s exactly what the organization does or did. Now, sadly, it’s closing its doors. I sat on the board for two years. I ended my term in May… yeah, May of this year, and I think it mostly is shutting down because of the environment that we are in. This organization was, you know, focused on people of color. They actually changed their name to try to navigate this space to momentum and value and purpose, but you know, ultimately that the climate is too challenging for that, right? But we actually, we hosted a podcast called Momentum Now for, I think they said two years, I didn’t realize it was so long. You know, it’s quite a few episode—

Lynch: Time flies.

McFarlane: And we just did a wrap-up episode earlier this week, and we talked about the impact that the organization had. And one very real number was that the organization touched directly, like, 145 people in the past couple of years and each one of them have come back and said how that has impacted them. But there’s also exponential impact because, you know, the workshops and the podcasts and other programs that they’ve done have this ripple effect, they will live on forever, and it really was about, hey, even doing the podcast, hey, let me see people like me and understand what their career trajectories are so I know what’s possible. And one of the greatest lessons—or even validations—that I got from working with the organization, particularly during the podcast and talking to these different individuals, is that, especially for people of color, your career tr—I’m going to steal something actually from one of the guests—she said, “You should think of your career more like a skyline rather than a skyscraper.” Her name is Wema Hoover. She is a DEI con—or she's an organizational strategist, sorry. And you know, we tend to think that it’s supposed to be like this, but for so many people of color, that trajectory is very different. Actually, it’s more like, think the executive director said, more like a river: it’s very bendy. And I felt like that’s how my career was, and because I don’t have access in the same way, right, and so you have to create these different paths and pivot and do all of these things. But that’s resilience and perseverance when you just can’t shoot right to the top. And so, yeah, it was very much a heartfelt experience, rather than, say, AMA New York, right, which is like, “Oh, I’m working for something better at my job.” And you know, financially, yes, we want more money for the community, but it actually mimicked the very first board where it was, I want to help young people, you know, I get a leg up in life.

Lynch: I think it’s safe to say, you know, I sit there and I think, yeah, people should know their why, right, which sounds so cliche, but also your why can change. You can have, you know, things that are important to you at one point. You may be in—this is kind of speaking to the audience as well—like, you may be in, like, a, you know, gosh, I really do need to network, so it needs to be in a professional organization. Or I need to stay sharp, so you know, I need to go into one that’s kind of in a field that matters to me. And then there’s the, I’m ready for some passion and a passion project. So, kind of know what you’re looking for at this time of your life when you’re seeking out those opportunities, I think would be something that I would share. Any other advice for an individual out there who might be feeling inspired right now.

McFarlane: Do it [laugh]. 

Lynch:... really. It’s very simple [laugh].

McFarlane: I mean, I love that you said, know your why. And I think it took me a while to actually define my why, and it’s something that I said earlier, which is to be better than before. So, whatever experience I’m engaging in, how is it going to add to the audience that I’m trying to serve, but also to me? And it’s okay for it to serve me as well and not just deplete me, right? And you know, how does this make me a better person, a better marketer, a better leader, a better strategist, a better whatever? And if I can answer that question, then I am in the bubble of my why, you know? And I would love for what I want to have benefit for other people and what they want as well, so it’s just this nice, you know, feel-good thing. So, I love that you started with that. And yeah, just find an organization that speaks to you and raise your hand. They need you.

Lynch: Yeah, yeah. They need you. Karen, as I expected, I’m sitting here looking like we already—remember I said, on average it’s 40 minutes. Sometimes it’s a little less. And I’m like, we're 50 minutes here and I’m like, “What?” Because there’s so much more I want to talk to you about, but I’m going to end with… anything that you really wanted to say, anything you need to plug, anything that you know you’re like, God, I wish you would ask me this, and you’re going to be a little irritated that I didn’t? So, anything else you want to share?

McFarlane: I’m not going to be irritated [laugh] at all, but I could talk to you for one whole hour more.

Lynch: I’m telling you, for real. Yeah, yeah.

McFarlane: You know, I’m just really grateful for the opportunity to come and share this. You know, I’ve been knee-deep in it, in governance and boards, and I, you know, it’s just a new-found… maybe it’s not that new because I told you I did this a long time ago, but I didn’t really recognize it in that way. But I would love to see more young people thinking about this, either now or for their future, and preparing themselves. And I’m happy to help people along as well. So, you know, people can find me on LinkedIn. I actually have a LinkedIn newsletter called Better on Purpose. That’s, you know, within my why realm [laugh]. 

Lynch: Yep, yep, yep. I love that.

McFarlane: And just come visit me on LinkedIn and read more and reach out if you know you’re starting up a board and you want some help in thinking that through and putting that together. And here I am.

Lynch: You are such a gift to everybody listening and to me. I am so glad that you joined us today, Karen. Thank you so, so much.

McFarlane: Thank you for having me, Karen. I had to get your name in one last time [laugh].

Lynch: [laugh]. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I know, really, we are the best of the best here. So, thank you to our audience for listening, for tuning in time after time. It’s a pleasure to bring these conversations to you. Thank you for listening. To our editor, Big Bad Audio. Thank you for doing what you do. I know that sometimes you have your work cut out for yourself, but just we’re grateful for all of that fine tuning. And of course, you know Brigette in the back room. Thank you so much, Brigette for helping us do what we do. Goodbye, everybody. We will see you next time on the Greenbook Podcast. Bye.