Eileen Campbell on AI, Brand Building, and the Future of Market Research in 2026

Few leaders have seen as many waves of transformation in market research as Eileen Campbell. From CEO of Millward Brown to CMO of IMAX and now founder of Women Intuition, Campbell has navigated industry reinvention from every angle. In this CEO Series conversation with Leonard Murphy, she explores AI’s deflationary impact, the hype versus real innovation debate, M&A uncertainty, and why brand building may be facing its most profound shift yet. In 2026, Campbell argues that the winners won’t be AI optimists or pessimists, but pragmatic innovators who rethink value, trust, and what “net new” truly means.

Transcript

Leonard Murphy: Hello everybody. It's Lenny Murphy with another edition of our CEO series. Thanks for taking time out of your day to spend it with myself and my guest. And uh today I am just joined by an industry legend and uh a person that I just really respect and and and like an awful lot. Um Eileen Campbell. Eileen, welcome.

Eileen Campbell: Hey, Lenny. How are you?

Leonard Murphy: I'm good. And it's uh it's great to have you on. For those who don't know Eileene, uh she is the founder of uh woman I can't even pronounce it correctly, Eileen. That that's that's the guy right there.

Eileen Campbell: It's it's women, you know. No, you know what? It's it's one of those names that, you know, is not so easy. It's women intuition.

Leonard Murphy: Women intuition. All right. The uh Thank you. Um but you have a long and story career in the industry as well. So, uh, so why don't you kind of talk about, uh, women intuition as well as the, uh, kind of your origin story and then we'll get into the more more fun stuff.
 
Eileen Campbell: Sure, sure, sure. Happy to do that. So, you know, I I I kind of jokingly say these days I'm kind of the fairy godmother of the market research industry. Um, you know, I've been I've been kicking around this space for many many many years. Um, you know, sort of with the exception of a stint at IMAX as a CMO, you know, sort of the only thing I've ever done. And and part of that is, you know, I've always found this an infinitely fascinating industry and one where, you know, I tell young people, you you have no excuse for ever being bored if you choose to go into market research. So, you know, for me, that was sort of my story. I I landed in the space by accident. I was in university. I needed to pay my tuition and uh so I started working when I was 19. Um and have have pretty much worked in the industry ever since. Um, and so obviously I've seen, you know, every major transition that that our industry's been through. Um, and I've I've sort of seen it from all angles, right? From a more operational perspective, from a client-f facing perspective, from actually being a client myself. Um, and um, and now as an adviser to other companies in our space, and other people who are interested in buying into our space. So that's that's kind of what I do these days. I do, you know, advisory work, um sort of a portfolio career. I sit on, you know, a board or two um and and try and share a little bit of what I've learned and some of the gifts that people have given me over the years and trying to give them back a little bit.

Leonard Murphy: Uh, speaking of gifts, um, do you recall when you were at IMAX and they released the the Godzilla movie um, and you brought several t-shirts uh, for me for that?

Eileen Campbell: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Still have those t-shirts? Uh, so Uh, sure.

Eileen Campbell: Oh, good, good, good. I'm glad. I'm glad. You know, I I still have a lot of we we had really good swag at IMAX. I have to say I have a lot of good IMAX swag.

Leonard Murphy: So, what was that like then making the transition because you were uh you were CEO of Miller Brown um uh and then made the transition to the CMO at IMAX.

Eileen Campbell: Right. Right.

Leonard Murphy: What was that like?

Eileen Campbell: Um, you know, it's it's interesting, right? It's I I always tell it as a bit of a tale of the insecurity of our industry. So I was the CEO of Milward Brown and had made the decision had been in that same role for I don't know seven or eight years and I kind of feel now this is just my opinion so don't this is not a criticism of any long-standing CEOs but for me personally I sort of felt like I should have a term limit that I went in you know bright eyed and bushy tailed with all kinds of good ideas and eight years later I implemented most of those and it was it was time for the next generation of leaders to to step up. So, I I'd made the decision and I was going to kind of step into the kind of role I have now, which is a bit of a portfolio career. Um, so happened the CEO of IMAX was a an former client and a quite quite good friend of mine. And we were having lunch one day and he said, "So, what are you up to?" I said, "You know, I know you're going to laugh, but I'm gonna I think I'm gonna kind of semi-retire." And he said, "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard." There was actually there's actually an expletative in the middle of it. Um and uh yeah, that type of friend.

Leonard Murphy: That type of friend. There you go.

Eileen Campbell: Exactly. That type of friend. And he said, "I'm looking for a CMO. Why don't you come in and do this?" And I said, "Well, you know, why don't you just hire me as a consultant?" He said, "Nobody listens to consultants." I said, "That's a very nice thing to tell your friend who's been a consultant for 30 plus years." But so, anyhow, I decided uh it was a job that wasn't going to require the same kind of, you know, international travel. Well, IMAX is actually technically based in Toronto where I where I lived. Um, even though my office was in New York and and so I so I said, "Okay, why not? It'll be fun." You know, it's a fun category, fun fun sector. Um, I'll do it for uh two years. You know, I'll come in and help you get it turned around where you want it to be. I ended up staying about five, but um but back to the story of why I think our industry has such an inferiority complex. I went from being the CEO of a billion-doll company to being the CMO of a company that at the time's revenues were around 250 million. Now, it had a big market cap because it's got a great brand, but but it was 250 million of revenue. The number of people who called me and congratulated me like, "Oh, wow. You've gotten a CMO." It's like I was a CEO of a billion dollar business. much bigger job, you know, much more challenging job in many ways, but to our industry, we have sort of this inferiority complex about what it is we do.

Leonard Murphy: Sure.

Eileen Campbell: As far as as what it was like being on that side of the business, I mean, it was fascinating, right? I mean, part of it was IMAX is a particularly complicated company um because it's somewhere in between the studios and the exhibitors and its financial model was complex and you know you were trying to help market you know

Leonard Murphy: Sure.

Eileen Campbell: With your little bitty budget Star Wars that had a you know I don't know I forget what Star Wars when it came back out like a hundred million dollar marketing budget.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Um, so in in some ways you it was a very interesting way to think about how brands can punch above their weight. And I think certainly everything I learned about brands and sort of the science of brand building at Millward Brown served me incredibly well at IMAX.
 
Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Um, and I, you know, I to this day contend that IMAX along with Disney is probably one of the few true brands in the entertainment space where when you say it, you know exactly what it stands for, what it means, how it's different um, from from other options out there. So, so it was and you know, and it was I got to meet a lot of really famous people and you know I I can say gee I've shaken hands with you know Tom Cruz and Chris Nolan and Clint Eastwood and so that you know that that part of the job was a little sexier than the market research industry.

Leonard Murphy: You were hanging out with the stars at uh at Miller Brown.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. No, not so much.

Leonard Murphy: Just uh just Sir Martin and Eric, right?

Eileen Campbell: Not and yeah well and they are stars in their own right.

Leonard Murphy: That's that's right. That's right. Oh, that's uh Yeah, that that's interesting.

Eileen Campbell: Soon.

Leonard Murphy: I haven't thought about in those terms before about the um the inferiority complex. Uh but that that resonates the I I obviously have not had the opportunity to uh in that you have had but uh people often you know dad what do you do and you know in my mind I well

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: you know everything in the world is driven by market research center right the um uh so I think what we do is incredibly important but most people are like oh what you do surveys right I mean you Yeah,

Eileen Campbell: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Are you the people who call me at dinner time?

Leonard Murphy: right.

Eileen Campbell: You know, we don't get that so much anymore, but

Leonard Murphy: Right, right, yeah, yeah. No, you're the ones that, you know, just try and bug me with online, but but anyway, uh whole other conversation. So you did uh you lived the lifestyles of the rich and famous for a while at uh at IMAX and then uh you decide to be an investor if I recall correctly observing from uh with working with some

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Really interesting folks. The the the man, the myth, the legend Angus Reed and and the Reed family.

Eileen Campbell: I did. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I worked for Angus early in my career and and again, you know, a longtime friend as our Andrew and Jennifer and um and so I guess that would have been I don't know maybe I don't even remember what year we did it.

Leonard Murphy: Mhm.

Eileen Campbell: I had again semi you you'll the theme running through this is the one thing I'm really s***** at is retiring. Um it's not my not my strong suit. So I was going to, you know, again do the portfolio thing and um uh at the time Andrew was starting to do some quite interesting things after he left um Vision Critical um and I had some ideas about where I thought you know I wasn't really interested in doing the same old same old but the combination of what Andrew was working on and sort of the this kind of kernel of an idea that I had um became became the the genesis of rival group.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Um, and so Andrew was starting to build out his his platform. Um, and we started to really think about this concept of conversational insights and uh chatbased methodologies and how do we modernize the sector for younger younger consumers who aren't interested in doing something that feels like they're taking the

Leonard Murphy: Mhm.

Eileen Campbell: SAT.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Um and um our our good buddy Matt Kleinmid came along for the ride and um so rival and re Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Mhm. Yeah. Getting the band back together. The vision critical band. Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Exactly.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Exactly. Yeah. Like I think Matt's first job ever out of university was he was an intern for me.

Leonard Murphy: Okay.

Eileen Campbell: Um so so we go way way way back. So we got that team together and we um and we launched Rival Group which has been you know a smash smashing success. And again, there my role, this is sort of my fairy godmother role. My role was to help get it up and running. Um, you know, do some of the stuff that you have to do when you're doing a startup that Andrew and Matt shouldn't have been doing because they should be out facing the markets and um, you know, doing their magic. And so then once it once it was up and running and uh all things weird then I stepped back to you know sort of a an interim position was I chaired the board for a couple of years and then I stepped out and now I'm just a passive investor in the company but but I remain a fan and their biggest cheerleader.

Leonard Murphy: I I I do as well. I think the uh your audience may not may not know this, but the uh I was an early vision critical customer back in 2005. Um so I've known known Andrew for a long time, know Matt.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Um uh currently honored through through Gen 2 to be an adviser as well.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. And Jen's fantastic.

Leonard Murphy: So yeah, so we're working in that uh that whole capacity of trying to help them right now as well. So obviously big fans.

Eileen Campbell: Cool.

Leonard Murphy: Um all right, so now uh we've kind of come I think almost to to current. So let's talk about uh women intuition. So what is is that just your consultancy or is there a specific Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Okay.

Eileen Campbell: It's it's really just my consultancy. I mean the you know sort of the privilege I have at this juncture in my life is I get to work on things that I think are interesting and where I think I can have an impact and with people I like and um so you know it's no ambition for it to be a big business just a a way for me to you know stay involved in the industry because I still love this space and believe wholeheartedly in in the potential of it. Um, so, so I do, you know, I do a little bit of advisory on on M&A and consolidation and those sorts of things. I do a little bit of work for other agencies that just have some issues they they'd like some help with. Um, I do a bit of writing and, you know, so I I I I dabble.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Okay. Because you're s***** at retirement. So Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly right.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Well, I think your daily life is probably an awful lot like mine. Um, as well, so the uh uh although I'm retirement's still pretty far way off, I turned 55 in February.

Eileen Campbell: Well, you're just a kid, Lenny. Oh, God bless.

Leonard Murphy: So, yeah. Um, uh, but I feel like a kid most probably to my detriment, but anyway.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: All right. So all that is good good background and segue for now here you and I are talking it's the tail end of 2025 the grit report just came out you know the world is changing faster and faster in every way imaginable um uh nothing is spared um particularly through the disruption of AI and and uh technology and our industry certainly is under immense transformative force you and I both been you you longer than me.
 
Eileen Campbell: Mhm.

Leonard Murphy: So we we know we've gone through periods of transformation before. My is uh this is more profound um uh more disruptive the uh uh because it's not just technological efficiency um and it's not just taking one thing and transferring it to another kind of a mode effect. There really are just, you know, significant implications across the board in terms of the demand, the value we create, the business models that um that most of the industry is is based on uh all being forced to do something different. Um not a clear end point, right? I mean, I think we see like we see the outline uh of the direction of travel, but it's not clear exactly where this ends if it does.

Eileen Campbell: Right.

Leonard Murphy: Um, and that's it's great as consultant, right? Uh, but yeah, people need advice.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. People need advice. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Um, but not so great for for folks that are in the middle of it. Uh, you know, trying to to change their businesses or build new businesses. Um, so do you agree that first that that's kind of my general take of the uh the millu that we're in? Do you

Eileen Campbell: Yeah, I would say I largely agree though I will say also I think um you know our industry has had you know a lot of chicken little moments you know where the sky is falling the sky is falling

Leonard Murphy: Mhm. Sure.

Eileen Campbell: We're all doo med you know um I do think I I agree with you completely that I think this is bigger and you know a more significant inflection point than than most of what we've seen in our careers.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: I would say the the migration to the internet because it completely disrupted um the infrastructure of the business you know was was from a commercial perspective um you know a a real shock to the system right you had

Leonard Murphy: Sure. No more phone rooms. Yeah, sure.

Eileen Campbell: Basically had factories that didn't work anymore um so so you know I would say it is at least as big as that probably probably bigger but maybe not quite as abrupt.

Leonard Murphy: Yep. Yep.

Eileen Campbell: Like it to me it seems like when we when we migrated to the internet it was almost like one day we weren't doing it and the next day we were and it was a Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: But it took 10 years though for online surveys to become the dominant model the the dominant mode for quant.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. I suppose. Yeah. I suppose.

Leonard Murphy: It took a decade.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. once and and I think we'll probably see maybe not a decade, but this will be a a rolling change.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Not an abrupt change, a rolling change.

Leonard Murphy: It. Yeah, I I love that. I think I I agree. Um I think that the um so I think it's certainly not a decade faster. Um uh and in waves the uh the way I kind of think about if we look at the right, you know, the gardener cycle like this isn't just one, right?

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Leonard Murphy: We've got like multiple interlocking waves, you know, here. Um Yes.

Eileen Campbell: It's like those, you know, those racing roller coasters where you're on one car.

Leonard Murphy: Right. Right. Right.

Eileen Campbell: It's like that picked the wrong industry, buddy.

Leonard Murphy: I'm not a fan of roller coasters. Uh so, but here we are. Right. I know. You remember the movie Parenthood?

Eileen Campbell: Oh, yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Do you remember the end?

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Um uh when you know he's watching Steve Martin and his wife, they're watching the play and then he imagines himself on a roller coaster, you know, and just kind of holding on and yes, uh that's where we are.

Eileen Campbell: Don't actually. Yeah, that's it.

Leonard Murphy: Um all right. So yes, I think we have the similar view on on where things are.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah, I agree.

Leonard Murphy: Uh you have had obviously a career in in you know building big massive businesses, managing large businesses, growing startups. Uh um what's your crystal ball right? If you think about the uh especially from kind of a macro view u you know M&A funding you know those type of things that are necessary uh boring but necessary elements of of uh of businesses especially during periods

Eileen Campbell: Mhm.

Leonard Murphy: Of disruption. What's your take? What do you think 2026 has in store?

Eileen Campbell: Um, you know, it's it's interesting. I think it's going to be I think we're going to see a lot of kind of barbell sorts of situations where, you know, uh, on one hand, we'll see a bunch of positive stuff, on the other hand, we'll see a bunch of scary stuff. So, you know, let's talk about consolidation, M&A, that sort of stuff. You know, there is a ton of dry powder out there, right? There's a load, a load, a load of money sitting out there that needs to get deployed.

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Eileen Campbell: Um on the other hand there's a little bit of a sense of uncertainty around our category and like particularly for you know PE companies it's like well do I really want to invest in that category right now because I don't have any idea what it's going to look like in two years or three years and it's tough to build your investment thesis. Now, I remind people that that's probably true in most industries right now because AI is not just affecting us, right?

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Eileen Campbell: It's it's affecting the world.

Leonard Murphy: Right.

Eileen Campbell: Um, so I think I and I think there are a number of situations like that for strategics if they're looking to make acquisitions. I think they're also saying maybe we just need to sit back a little bit longer and let this sort out, you know, who are going to be the winners, which of these new ideas are really going to resonate with with clients. Um, and I also think 2026 will be a continuation of something we've seen in 2025, which is a massive hype cycle around some of this stuff. Um, you know, Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Well, and money though. I mean, there's a lot the the VC a lot of dry powder on the PE side, but tons of money flowing in on the VC side.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. On the VC side. Exactly. And And so I think I think I think some of the hype will get funded. Some of the real stuff, you know, won't have any problem getting funded. Um and so so I think from that perspective right now one of the biggest challenges and I think it's a challenge clients are facing and it seemed to me to be coming through in the um in the grit report is how do we sort the the real the real beneficial innovations that are going on from the height.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Eileen Campbell: You know, it's like, you know, before long we'll be selling AI door knobs. Um or, you know, synthetic fly swatters.

Leonard Murphy: I think I saw that somewhere already, but

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, so I think I I think that 2026 might actually be the year of hyperbolic hype, you know, like hype on steroids. And then and then it'll start to settle out because, you know, the truth is once clients start trying stuff, they go, "That's really great. It works.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: I'm going to tell other people about it. And and I think going into 2027, we'll start to see, you know, sort of the winners and the losers, you know, surface.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I agree. I also think there's something that and thanks from the shout out on grid. Um the uh uh what stood out to me is obviously cheaper, faster, better. Yes. Okay. Oh, apologies. Um, my dog says hello. Uh, uh, I am, uh, here alone without any backup resources, uh, as we record this. So, audience, yes.

Eileen Campbell: So the dog's with you.

Leonard Murphy: So, audience, apologies.

Eileen Campbell: Hey huge.

Leonard Murphy: Uh, you may hear, uh, you may hear some barking in the background. Um, the, uh, trust still a huge factor. Uh, and the the old saying, nobody got fired for going to IBM, right? Um I I think that that is the power of incumbency and the power of trust are not to be underestimated.

Eileen Campbell: Yep. Totally.

Leonard Murphy: Um however there is still that being said even if you are a trusted incumbent um uh let's say I'm just picking on a company randomly right that we all recognize.

Eileen Campbell: I agree.

Leonard Murphy: Let's say Euripos, right? Um, yeah, they've got a lot of capital from that standpoint, but that doesn't make anyone immune for the the cost and speed uh efficiencies and the looking for net new.

Eileen Campbell: No, of course not.

Leonard Murphy: When I think about AI uh today, I think there's it's kind of three categories. Um, there's utility, right? It just does what we've always done a better. Okay. So, um so there's a lot of utility out there. Whole lot of utility. That doesn't create value per se. Um it's not net new value creation. It's just a faster car. So uh my take um then there is uh another category where uh that I think is unique but it's still not net new. It's just oh I can combine A and B better now and through that I get a Reese's cup.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Now is Reese's cup really net new?

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: No, it's just chocolate and peanut butter. But you know it's it's hell of a lot tastier.
 
Eileen Campbell: Right.

Leonard Murphy: Okay, great.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Where's the the the net new I think is where big businesses are built from. Um that okay we are solving a problem in a way that has never been solved before and and I'm not seeing that yet.

Eileen Campbell: Right.

Leonard Murphy: Um I think there's there's inklings of it. um uh some of the the solutions maybe the synthetic uh kind of uh digital agent predictive models um that that may get us closer to kind of the net new um uh so anyway my point in all that is sorry I didn't this your interview and here I am going off um Yes.

Eileen Campbell: It. No, no, it's I think you're I think you're right. I think there there isn't a lot of really truly net new. There are new ways to do old things. Um but not a ton of of of net net new. And I think because you know it's early days, right? Like when when did chat GPT become available?

Leonard Murphy: Right.
 
Eileen Campbell: Was it three years, right?

Leonard Murphy: Three years. Three three three years now.

Eileen Campbell: So, so, so to me like just following up on your point like about the the big guys and you know let's set aside any company but um you know I think I think the big guys do come mostly

Leonard Murphy: Like right about now. Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: With with that really trusted you know they didn't get big by not being good and um diligent and reliable um and exactly exactly Um but but to me um and and this

Leonard Murphy: Right. Yep. Or they become currency like Noah Brown. Right. Yeah. Absolutely.

Eileen Campbell: This was a battle I used to have to fight all all the time at Milward Brown is big doesn't mean you can't be innovative. You know it means it means it might be harder. You've got to kind of try and fight the you know the internal inertia or the everything's more important. But I think, you know, I think the big companies have stayed leaders for a long time because they have actually been quite innovative. Um, and to be candid, they're well resourced to to be able to um, and the other big difference and and actually a power of incumbency that I think is underappreciated or underestimated is they are also repositories of massive

Leonard Murphy: Look at the grip 15. Yes.

Eileen Campbell: Massive massives amount of data.

Leonard Murphy: Mhm.

Eileen Campbell: Um and um you know that is you it's like we talk about synthetic when people start talking about synthetic but they don't have those massive repositories of data.

Leonard Murphy: Mhm.

Eileen Campbell: What are you synthesizing?

Leonard Murphy: Right.

Eileen Campbell: What what what is it that you are simulating?

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Eileen Campbell: Um you know five personas that you typed into the into a chatbot.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Eileen Campbell: Um so and and the other thing that we see as we get you know use AI more and more and more is that its learning model only takes it so far. It needs sources of new data and the the moat that I think some of the big players have is they have a steady stream and the resources to continue to build. So by that very nature their synthetic should be better than somebody who's you know uh plowing virgin ground.

Leonard Murphy: Yep. Yep.

Eileen Campbell: Um, so, so I think some of it is, you know, people keeping their confidence up and and and also we do sometimes our industry bifurcates into the what I'll call the finger waggers like, oh, no, no, you can't

Leonard Murphy: Agreed. 100%.

Eileen Campbell: Do that. That's not, you know, that's not real research or whatever. I think the most, you know, this this idea, are you an AI optimist or an AI pessimist? It's like I think we need AI pragmatists.

Leonard Murphy: Yes. Yep.

Eileen Campbell: I'm an AI pragmatist and I um you know I think the you know the the best agencies in the industry will probably you know they're they're not going to say oh no we're not doing AI you might see

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Me, too.

Eileen Campbell: That more in the midm market. Um, and and who knows, maybe there's a niche that can be carved out from the people who say, "No, no, everything we do is going to be with, you know, real people, real respondents, um, and artisal."
 
Leonard Murphy: Artisal research.

Eileen Campbell: Exactly. Exactly. Handcrafted.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yeah.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: I I I agree 100%. The uh with all of that. Um, now that said, and we'll be conscious of your time as well as the uh as our listeners, but there there's two two other areas that I want to make sure that we cover. Um, the uh so all of all of that said, I'm I'm optimist about the industry as well. uh and I think that we'll we'll get there while recognizing there are immense pressures on business models um uh that particularly for public companies or for private equity invested companies uh may be challenging.

Eileen Campbell: Come on, All right.

Leonard Murphy: I I think that we're going to see large companies actually decline in revenue but increase in profitability um uh simply because of price point compression um overall. Uh, and none of that is going to be fun to navigate for for those CEOs um to do that. And that's probably going to be fairly pervasive.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Um, uh, so that's just one recognition.

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: At the end of the day, are we health are they healthier companies? I would argue probably yes. Um, uh, but they're going to be leaner.

Eileen Campbell: Right.

Leonard Murphy: Um, and

Eileen Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, is is AI going to have a deflationary effect? Yeah, probably. But we we touched on this a little earlier, this idea of we have to rethink um the value we create because um you know we're so used to so many years being basically a time and materials industry. Um as we develop new approaches and new tools that aren't as reliant on time and materials, that doesn't make them less valuable.

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Eileen Campbell: And of course, you know, you certainly want to pass on some of the efficiency to your clients and your buyers because if you don't, someone else will. On the other hand, um it is not the time to be devaluing our currency.

Leonard Murphy: Yep. No, good stuff. The, uh, now all that said again, uh, listeners, apologies if you hear dogs in the background. Um, uh, brands, right?

Eileen Campbell: No problem.

Leonard Murphy: Okay, so we're talking about, you know, the supplier side primarily in this conversation while recognize everything we just said is all true for buyers and brands, uh, but bigger, right, in many ways because there's so many other aspects

Eileen Campbell: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Of their business, um, that are being impacted, um, uh, and ultimately the process.

Eileen Campbell: Right.

Leonard Murphy: I am truly sorry, but this I'm not I'm not going to end this this conversation because of background.

Eileen Campbell: I'm barely I'm barely hearing.

Leonard Murphy: Okay.

Eileen Campbell: Honestly, I'm barely hearing your dog.

Leonard Murphy: Okay. The um the implications from a marketing standpoint I would say are even more profound than what we are talking about.

Eileen Campbell: Enormous.

Leonard Murphy: Um so what's your take on that?

Eileen Campbell: Enormous. I think um I think that how brands are built is going to change a lot. Um, and I think the traditional, you know, how do you build awareness, um, is gonna is going to fundamentally change. Um, you know, I I was thinking about the lease is up on my car soon. I type into a chatbot, you know, um, or into an LLM. Here's where I live. Here's how much I drive. This is what my husband drives. What's kind of the perfect two cars for us? and it gives me a list and it's like, yeah, you know what? I don't see any really compelling need to consider anything that wasn't on that list. So, the manner in which I'm going about discovering what might be right for me um has has changed completely. So optimizing for search engines um you know sort of even what is the value of your website these days and and um the app economy like I could see the app economy totally blowing up because will I really need an app if I've you know if I've got clawed and perplexity on my phone you Can it do most of what an app could have done? So, so I think for brand builders, it's it's going to be an enormous change. Um, I think even something as simple as what are the words we use in ads and stuff, you know, those all go into learning models now. Um, so I think I think that's going to change a ton. I think how we shop will be profoundly affected. How we travel will be profoundly affected. Um, so, so I think for brands, it's almost like everybody's kind of going back to brand building school and it's actually where I think our industry has a real opportunity to help because there is no, you know, there is no history. There's no, you know, you got to be you got to be figuring this stuff out in real time. Um, and I think I think the insights industry has an enormous role to play in helping marketers navigate, you know, who's changing how they shop, who's not. You there's still going to be people, you know, I don't I don't feel like um AI has been like um like our phones in that I don't see everybody universally adopting the use of AI like like we have with other technologies.

Leonard Murphy: Sorry, I was on mute. Um, the dogs are really going nuts.

Eileen Campbell: Oh no.

Leonard Murphy: So, that we're probably uh actually it's probably the cats are probably we should probably wrap this up so we can save the cat and not have this distraction.

Eileen Campbell: Must be a squirrel in your yard, Lenny.

Leonard Murphy: Um uh I mean I want to call I want to call this part one.

Eileen Campbell: He does it all.

Leonard Murphy: Um I think there's an awful lot for us to unpack and to talk about um further, but I'm not going to subject everybody to this background noise.

Eileen Campbell: Okay.

Leonard Murphy: And again, apologies audience. This is we go live without a net.

Eileen Campbell: Always fun to chat you, Lenny. Anytime.

Leonard Murphy: I I I would like to because I think that there's there's a Yeah, we're we're in such times.

Eileen Campbell: All right.

Leonard Murphy: Thank you so much for your wisdom um uh and time.

Eileen Campbell: All right.

Leonard Murphy: Thank you audience for your time as well and uh Yep.

Eileen Campbell: Good to catch up.

Leonard Murphy: I'm going to go save my cat from these dogs. Um thanks everybody.

Eileen Campbell: All right. Be well.

Leonard Murphy: Be well.