Matt O’Mara, Cranbrook: AI, Jobs & the Insights Market

In this episode of the Greenbook Podcast, host Karen Lynch sits down with Matt O’Mara, President of Cranbrook Search Consultants, to discuss the state of hiring and career development in the insights industry. With more than 30 years of experience spanning client, supplier, and recruiting roles, Matt offers an insider’s view on the opportunities and challenges shaping today’s job market.

From the advantages of working with a search firm, to misconceptions about recruiters, to the growing role of AI in hiring and candidate preparation, this conversation is packed with timely advice. Whether you’re an active job seeker, a hiring manager navigating a slow market, or a researcher thinking about your next career step, Matt’s perspectives on networking, skill-building, and the future of work will leave you with actionable takeaways.

Key Discussion Points:

• Why search firms can be a strategic advantage for both candidates and hiring companies
• Misconceptions about recruiters—and how ethical consultants add real value
• Current hiring market conditions: demand shifts, sector slowdowns, and where growth remains strong
• The role of AI in hiring and how candidates can smartly use AI to prepare resumes and interviews
• Remote, hybrid, and gig work: how work arrangements are evolving in the insights industry

Resources & Links:

• Cranbrook Search Consultants
• Insights Career Network
• Freakonomics Radio (Stephen Dubner’s podcast)
• The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
• Marketplace with Kai Ryssdal
• Insights on the Brink by Tim Hoskins

You can reach out to Matt O’Mara on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Matt O’Mara for being our guest. Thanks also to our production team and our editor at Big Bad Audio.

Transcript

Karen: Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Greenbook Podcast I’m hosting—it’s Karen Lynch, it’s a pleasure to be joining you all today, wherever you are joining us from, and it’s also a pleasure to be talking to today’s guest. So, let me tell you I first met Matt O’Mara years ago when I reached out to him at Cranbrook Search Consultants, when I was a freelance qualitative consultant, considering going back to work, and he and I would just chat regularly about the job market and what was in it for me if I left my freelance business and went full time, and what opportunities there were, and has always been a pleasure to talk to him. Matt, welcome to the Greenbook Podcast.

Matt: Thank you, Karen. It’s great to be here. I’m so excited to be here. A little bit up front, I’m a huge podcast fan. It’s my first time on a podcast, so this is a great experience for me. But if I slip into emulating any of my favorite podcasters, like Kai Ryssdal, Scott Galloway, or Stephen Dubner, you’ll have to forgive me in advance if I adopt their style, if you will. 

Karen: That’s great. That’s great. No and really, no need to apologize. Be yourself. Bring it. I don’t know any of those podcasters, so [laugh]—

Matt: Oh, they’re wonderful. They’re won—yeah.

Karen: Now, we’ll have to add those links at the end of the episode, like, and since he mentioned them. So, [crosstalk 00:01:30].

Matt: Marketplace, Scott Galloway probably has three different podcasts, and Stephen Dubner does Freakonomics.

Karen: Oh yes, yes, yes. That I have listened to, actually. So anyway, well, we will make this one our own. But it’s so good to have you here. And for everyone listening, if you don’t know Matt, you’re about to get to know him, but he’s got, you know, 30-years-plus experience in this industry, from the client side, supplier side, as a recruiter. He leads Cranbrook Search Consultants, and kind of like one of the go-tos in this industry, if not the go-to when you first start off on a job hunt, or whether you’re looking for someone. So Matt, I’m going to stop there and let you do more of an introduction, expand upon it, and then we’ll continue rolling the conversation along.

Matt: Well, first of all, I wanted to just mention the fact that Karen and I worked together on the Insights Career Network, and I have found that to be extremely fulfilling. And I just, I take my hat off to all those wonderful people that volunteer on that program. It’s just done some really wonderful things for our industry and it’s just a great example of the industry, kind of, coming together and working together to a common good, even though it’s—everybody, like ourselves included, are doing it voluntarily. So, it’s really a wonderful program and I’m thrilled to be part of that. But my core business, right—I mean, I’ve got a core business that I do have to attend to—is Cranbrook Search Consultants, and we’re an executive search firm that specializes in the insights industry. I started the company after, as you mentioned, ten years on the client side and roughly ten years on the supplier side, essentially because this is something I’ve always wanted to do, felt like this is something that really I enjoy doing, and I’ll get into a couple of reasons why later on, based on some of the questions that we talked about. But we work with market research companies, primarily, also client-side firms, but essentially, we’re looking for insights talent or within reasonable concentric circles around that core of insights and marketing. That’s basically what we do. If I had to break it down to a granular level, our typical or our target client is a supplier-side company, you know, an insights company, roughly $40 to 120 million in revenue. We certainly work with companies much smaller than that, much larger than that, you know, all the way up to Nielsen and the likes, but that’s sort of our core. Our typical market research search is a vice president of business development or a vice president of operations, you know, an important strategic role for a company to fill, and they’re looking for some assistance to make sure that they get that right.

Karen: And you know, thank you for sharing that. I think it’s important to our listeners, to, you know, understand the context for the show. We’re going to be digging into the current job market and hiring trends, and you are uniquely qualified to talk about that because it’s the nature of your business. But I love the context of who actually works with you, like, because these are strategic roles. So, you have a different lens, right, that comes from your vast experience. So, let’s just talk a little bit about what, you know, you think kind of the advantages for somebody just in working with a search firm versus just going on a job hunt. I think that we know that there are lots of people out there, through our work at Insights Career Network and the incredible number of followers they have, lots of people who are looking for something, and I think sometimes people wonder, like, “Should I do that? Should I work with the firm?” On both sides of it, right? “Should I use a firm because I have a hiring need,” or, “Should I reach out to a firm because I have a job need?” Like, how do people discern whether it’s the right approach for them?

Matt: That’s a good question, and it really depends. Obviously, it’s a different criteria for client side, the companies that hire us, versus candidates, right? Those are very different situations. But in the terms of the clients, it’s been my experience that companies and executive search firms that really partner with one another and really gets it, especially on the part of the executive search firm, where they take the time and learn about the company, learn about their strengths and weaknesses, and really understand the company itself, that then they can add value to that process. Otherwise, you kind of fall out of this trap where you’re just sending resumes because you’re not certain what it is that they’re looking for. I’ve been very fortunate in that I’ve been able to partner with a lot of amazing companies, and you get to know their leadership, you get to know their teams, and you’re much more effective that way, when you’re truly partnered with the firm. You know, I think one of the benefits—one of the other benefits that an executive search firm can bring is we spend a lot of our time looking at passive candidates, right? I mean, of course, we’re talking to active candidates, people that are in the search mode right now and looking to find a job, but we also spend a lot of time just talking to people who may or may not be interested in an opportunity and we’ve found that helps us to really make a match, right? So, you know, in our back pocket, I’ve got a handful of candidates who I think would be great at a marketing research firm in a, let’s say, a marketing sciences role, and when one of those comes up, I immediately can go to that group and say, “Hey, here’s an opportunity. Let’s talk about it.” And that’s kind of where the magic happens. From the candidate perspective, I think talking with and engaging with a search firm can be beneficial, just simply because it’s our job to talk to companies and talk about jobs, right? We tend to be more cognizant and more aware of roles that are out there. So, networking with myself and my colleagues in this space—and there are some amazing companies and people in this space—I wrote down—and I’ll get to that in a second, but there are some amazing companies that are out there that we kind of break the mold of the stereotypes that you hear of insight or of search firms. And that’s a real benefit for the candidate, right, is, how can you expand your networking and give yourself a better chance to find an opportunity?

Karen: And, you know, I can attest to that. As I mentioned earlier, you and I had had many conversations, you know, ten years ago, when I wasn’t really looking for work, and ultimately got a job that a different search consultant reached out to me directly for, and that’s how it all happened. But I had those conversations with you, and then I, you know, saw you at events, and you were always just walking around, just talking to people, just getting to know people with no agenda whatsoever. I remembered, you know, again, I was working with InsightsNow, who, you know—shout out to Greg Stucky—and we were at a booth, when you came up to us, and he was like, you know, like, the thing about Matt is he’s not poaching you. Like, he just wants to have conversations. Like, there’s trust for you within the industry and I think that’s probably a challenging thing to build, but you’ve done it very well.

Matt: Thank you. There’s always that ulterior motive. I mean, I’d be lying to say I’m not trying to find clients or candidates when I’m walking the halls of an event, but if you make that your priority, it’s just, it’s going to get in the way of meaningful dialog. So, thank you.

Karen: Yeah, yeah, no, my pleasure, and I mean it. So, you know, there’s perks for all working with a search firm, but there’s also some challenges, or even maybe some misconceptions about that kind of a partnership, versus an independent job seeker, or somebody who’s just putting job postings out there on LinkedIn. Are there any that you can clarify for us right now, some of those misconceptions?

Matt: Yeah, I think the biggest challenge is there is a… [sigh] it’s sort of stereotypical that search firms are just jamming candidates, and they’re, you know, ruthless and unscrupulous in their techniques and their methods, right? And so, yeah, this could be an entire podcast of, you know what makes bad recruiters, bad recruiter stories. And the truth of the matter is, I actually started my company—first of all—because I—this goes way, way back in my professional career—of I really enjoy this process of getting people promoted and finding people jobs, to the point where I was actually doing that; I was sending candidates to recruiters that I knew, but I was recruited a couple of different times by these archetypical recruiters who, you know, we’re trying to break the mold on. One guy in particular, I was working at General Motors at the time, and he was, you know, this old time New York—no offense to my good friends in New York City—but this old time New Yorker. He calls me, he’s like, “Matt, you got to resign from GM today. You got an offer. You got to resign. Tell me you’re going to resign.” And I felt like I was talking with the mafia, and he was going to come and do a hit on me if I didn’t resign. The next one, the next guy, this is the one that really prompted me to start the company, is—you get to know your recruiter through the process, right, and I was being recruited for a market research company—and his arrogance was palatable. I mean, you could just feel it every time you talked with this guy. And he told me exactly how much money he made, which was an obscene amount of money, which I’m not anywhere close to that, I’ll be honest, but number two—and you know, he lived in a high rise apartment in South Florida and yadda yadda yadda—and yet, in my humble opinion, he had very little knowledge of market research. Like, he was functioning in this space and doing very well with almost no knowledge. And that was, for me, the trigger. I’m like, well, gosh, if a guy like that could do it, why couldn’t I try this? And, long story short, a dear friend of mine, John Gongos, I went to his office, I said, “John, I got this idea. What do you think?” And he’s like, “If you do it, Matt, I’ll hire you.” And that’s all I needed. So, God bless John Gongos, for many, many reasons, but one of which is he was really instrumental in getting me started in starting the company.

Karen: You know, I think that there is something to be said for that one person, right, that one person who can really kind of make or break a career. And in this case, make a career, you know? We all just need that one advocate, right?

Matt: Yeah, exactly. And in that case, I think it was, I think I knew I just needed to hear that approval, and especially from someone like John, who I love and adore. And real quickly, though, I do want to mention the colleagues that I talked about before. So, you know, there’s folks like Karen Morgan, Lindsay Bartlett, Amy Comly, and Laura Drews-Freund, all amazing recruiters, all highly ethical, doing it the right way. So, all those stereotypes that you’re afraid of, forget about it when you’re talking with these folks. They’re amazing at what they do. And you know, it’s just an honor to work with people like that. 

Karen: And yes, follow all of them on LinkedIn. Like, I think it’s great. They’re often sharing positions. And what I think is, something that you said earlier is, you know, yes, there’s, obviously, there’s the audience right now that needs a job, there’s plenty of those people, but if you are ambitious in your career, you know, have conversations with these folks well in advance of you know what you might want. You know you might be thinking, I’m good right now, but I don’t know where I’ll be in five years. Or I might want to make a change in five years. It’s not too early to start to think through your future career today. That’s all—

Matt: Absolutely. 

Karen: —my advice, my [laugh] layman’s advice, as someone who has also been around for 30 some-odd years.

Matt: I tell this to our students—I’ll talk a little bit about this later—but I tell this to our students all the time. And I give them that list, right? I put that up every presentation I do to the MSMR students at Michigan State, and I say, “Guys, first of all, just start networking. But these are the folks you want to start with.” And then I throw out a bunch of other folks that I want them to connect with. And it’s like, yeah, it’s never too early, right? Start doing this early so that, you know, you build and you build the support network, if you will.

Karen: Yeah, and I think, you know, again, I’ll stay with this concept for a minute of what people should do if they’re just, you know, in that earlier phase. I remember when we talked, looking at job descriptions and thinking, “What does, kind of, a VP of qualitative do,” for example. Like, “What does that job entail? What is that description, and do I aspire to that?” You know, things like that, being very specific. And when I see somebody sharing a position on LinkedIn, I’ll check it out, and I’ll be like, what are the job response responsibilities associated with that role? Not for myself as somebody looking but as somebody who’s thinking about event programming right now. You know, I kind of want to know what are the positions that would be interesting to get on stage. So, there might be a subtle reason for looking at those job descriptions that isn’t to fill an immediate need. So, don’t dismiss something because you’re not interested in the now; think about what it could mean just to have that knowledge, you know? Grow your knowledge of positions in the industry and be really mindful about how you use them in the future. So—

Matt: Absolutely.

Karen: So, let’s talk about the current market, right? So, I’m sure, again, we have a lot of listeners that are probably seeking work right now, or open to work, or looking for their next position. And I know that there’s a lot of tension always around that, so let’s just get to that. How would you describe the current state of the market? 

Matt: Everything’s fine. There’s no problems whatsoever. It’s a perfect world [laugh].

Karen: Yay. And with that, we’ll wrap. No [laugh].

Matt: It is so untrue. Wow. There’s so much going on right now. Again, this is an entire—this is not just a podcast; this is a, you know, a TED Talk that any one of us could do. There’s been seismic shifts going on in hiring, and some of those changes are happening really rapidly, others have been, kind of, slowly building. But this year, especially 2025, you know, a good part of 2024 also, we’re seeing some of these changes. It’s, you know, I kind of feel like, geez, wow. I wish I’d have thought about that when I heard about the Bureau of Labor Statistics altering the job reports from basically half of 2024 in the first part of this year, right, you know, reducing a million jobs, like, taking a million jobs off the report. All of us that are in this business are saying, “No kidding, wow. You mean to tell me that the job market has been slow a lot longer than you think?” It has been incredibly slow. There’s a lot of material out there. In fact, Lindsay Bartlett put together a great assessment on, sort of, the hiring freeze, and I would recommend people to go and look at that. I believe it’s on their website. But there’s just, yeah, seismic changes that are happening. You know, hiring hasn’t stopped completely, but hiring has changed pretty dramatically and there’s been a real slowdown. And there’s also a fair amount of seasonality when it comes to hiring in insights. I mean, you’re probably well aware of this. Everyone that’s been in this business kind of understands it. In Q4 there’s this ramp up of activity, a lot of hiring in Q1 and Q2, and then in Q3 things sort of slow down a little bit. There’s also a fair amount of cyclical things that go on, right? There’s acquisitions and expansions and companies that are being acquired stop hiring. You know, once they’re through the acquisition, there’s more hiring. So, when you see a lot of those sorts of activities, it does affect the hiring market. But just based on what we’ve been seeing and the slowdown in client investment in research, it has affected the industry pretty dramatically. And you know, Lindsay makes this point in her documents. You know, when clients cut back on spending, their market research is one of those things that’s easy to pull back because it doesn’t hurt you right away. It’s sort of a delayed—it will hurt you, but you don’t feel the pain straight away. And so, we have absolutely seen that. But yeah, so there’s an absolute pullback and a change in the demand for talent right now and that changes everything about this process, right? In 2021 and 2022 when there was more jobs than candidates, you know, hiring firms really had to be reactive. They had to grab candidates that were available, you know, as soon as they made themselves available. They had to compete for candidates. They had to make really compelling offers. They had to, you know, finesse their hiring process, not to drag it out because they were losing candidates. And now we kind of have the flip, right? So, the tables have turned, so to speak, and so now you have more candidates and you have jobs. And when that happens, it’s natural for clients, for hiring managers, to slow the process down, to want to see—you know, I hear this often, “Hey Matt, Bob was a great candidate. We love Bob. It’s sensational. Now, go find us three other people. We want to interview them too.” You know, and I sit there and I go, you just told me you love Bob, you know? Why do you want to start dating somebody else? Let’s make a commitment and let’s go. But they can’t because they know they’ve got the possibility that there could be four other candidates out there that could be as good or better. 

Karen: Better than Bob? It’s hard to believe.

Matt: Better than Bob. Again, and I don’t blame the clients. It’s just a normal reaction to the environment, and that is, they have the leverage, and so they’re going to be more—the process is going to take a bit longer, they’re going to be more deliberate, and there’s also going to be some situations where they will string along people in the thoughts that, yeah, we’re going to be able to make an offer, but it doesn’t pan out, and then it all stops.

Karen: What’s the—sidebar; this wasn’t on our brief so I’m stepping out for a second—but I’m thinking about somebody in particular who actually, I think has been caught up in that, the ‘somebody like Bob,’ you know? It’s a great candidate, we’d love to hire you, but we do feel this need to talk to a few other people, slowing the whole process down. What’s the advice for a candidate who might be in that ambiguity of, you know, like, I think I did great, but they’re not making a decision yet because they don’t have to. Advice for that candidate?

Matt: Yeah, if the person is, if a person’s in the middle of a disruption, right, they’ve got laid off, or there was a disruption at their previous employer, and they’re looking, they’re limited in what they can and can’t do. If the person is passive, I strongly advise people to say, look—if you’re getting strung along, just tell them, “Look, if you’re not interested in making me a bona fide offer, this has been wonderful, and it’s great, but let’s just go our separate ways.” I have no authority whatsoever when it comes to dating. My wife will attest to you that I a—absolutely—I mean, I fell into the relationship with my wife. I’m not kidding you. I was actually trying to set her up with my younger brother and she had to tell me, “No, I don’t want to see him. I want to see you.” So, keeping that in mind, the recruiting process is not that different from dating and if one person is too eager or not eager enough, it will be a turn off to the other person. So, my advice is always play it cool. Try to play it as cool as possible. Stay interested, stay active, but don’t be afraid to push back. If you feel like you’re not being respected, or if you feel like this process isn’t going anywhere, say, so. Just say, “You know what, this has been great. I’ve had some great conversations. I love what you guys are all about, but if this is going nowhere, then let me know, and then we’ll just, you know, we’ll part, and we’ve had a great time. But if it’s serious, then let’s talk about it.” And you’d be surprised to the reaction. A lot of times, companies will go, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t run. Don’t go, don’t go, don’t go.”

Karen: “Don’t go, don’t go.”

Matt: “We’re serious.” Yeah. But that’s a hard conversation to do, especially if you’ve had a disruption and you need a job, when you say, “I need a job,” you know, if you have—and again, I’m going to—no authority on this whatsoever, but if you act desperate in any way, shape or form, it turns off the other person.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. No, I do. I think that’s great advice. And I think, you know, I… I think that it is—I just want to point out, kind of, awareness for the audience; we recognize that if you are in a need state, how uncomfortable that is. One of the things my husband and I always said to our kids is, you know, always be looking when you’re younger because the best time to find your next job is when you are currently gainfully employed, [laugh] like, when you’re in that career growth stage. And we understand that looking for a job when you have a job, is one mindset; looking for it when you really are in need, is another, so kind of acknowledging that, for folks. Curious, Matt, if there’s a type of role where you’re seeing stronger demand at the moment, which can also segue into type of skills. Like, where is there demand, if at all, or is it really just, kind of, universally tough right now? 

Matt: It is universally tough right now, but there’s silver linings. There’s some good stuff that’s happening right now. And first and foremost, it’s, you know, kind of like segmenting the market, right? So, the Insights Association has done a great job of analyzing the market and where is the growth happening and maybe where it’s not happening, and you know, spoiler alert, you know, Captain Obvious is going to tell you that the growth is happening with the digital data analytics segment, as they call it, that group of companies. And it’s, you know, 15% of the industries, about. It’s growing very rapidly: 12 to 15% a year. Those companies are going to continue to hire. They’re doing very, very well. The traditional market research companies are not. They’re not growing. They’re a big part of the industry, probably $35 to 40 billion in revenue collectively, if you will, but they’re growing at a glacial pace, if at all, right? And in some segments within that segment, some aspects of that segment are probably shrinking. So, there are opportunities out there, but they tend to be more data analytic-oriented. Traditional market research skills are still valuable, but those companies are not hiring to the same extent. The one thing that we have absolutely seen is where companies, they want to bolster their sales, so they want to hire salespeople. But they’re in a bit of a quandary, right? It’s like, we want to bring on new people so we can add sales, but we really don’t want to add the cost, and so they’re kind of trying to shift maybe some of that balance of base salary to commissions, more heavily towards commissions. And so, they’re going to struggle to find the right talent, you know, when you put the onus on the new employee. But again, it’s not as if hiring is completely frozen, like it did, let’s say in 2009, but it is definitely slower right now. The real growth, again, is with data analytics and highly specialized groups like that.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. No, that actually tracks with some other data points in my head, so I’m glad you’ve mentioned that. Sidebar to those listening, one of the things it’s tracking with, you know, we do… we track things editorially, and our editorial content around data is, like, you know, popping right now. People are reading up on data and analytics, in particular in our ecosystem, you know, as opposed to just, kind of, the softer consumer insights side of the business, right? Anyway, so it’s good validation that, if you are a multi-faceted researcher, maybe you want to kind of shore up your data analysis skills, or your use of data analysis tools, which spoiler alert, we will be talking about AI soon. But are there other kinds of skills that you think that could be really critical right now for people to kind of shore up a little bit to face, kind of, the market the way it is now and then down the road?

Matt: Yeah, the growth within the traditional market research is in strategic partnerships, right, so companies that can really add strategic insight for their clients. I’m old enough to, you know—and I started with a company that was very traditional. The market research that we did, we viewed ourselves as data providers, right? I was told—not kidding—I was told by my boss, when I was a young researcher at General Motors, “Matt just read the charts. Don’t offer your opinions.” And this was hard for me because in my previous job, my commanding officer would say, “Matt, is the plane ready to fly?” And I would have to give him a reasonable, you know, whether or not the plane could fly. 

Karen: So, hold on a minute because if you don’t know, like, he’s being literal. Yes, Matt is a former captain in the US Marine Corps. I was going to mention that in their introduction. So anyway, so as you’re speaking, he’s being literal. This is a part of his background. So, keep going, but I wanted to share that with everybody.

Matt: But that is so foreign to what the skills are needed now, as researchers and insights professionals. We need to be able to provide—we; the royal we—need to be able to provide a point of view. Need to be strategically conversant, right? We got to be able to provide a point of view and strategy input because otherwise, you’re just a data provider and you’re going to be replaced really rapidly.

Karen: And I’ve had that conversation with people where you suddenly feel you’ve arrived when you can look at the data and actually have a point of view about it. That’s a big, kind of, rite of passage within the industry for younger researchers who are, like, “I’ve seen the data, I’ve seen the research, I’ve read the findings. I think it means this.” When you have enough of a kind of self-proficiency to be able to say, “Wait, I actually can glean something from this and offer an insight or offer a recommendation,” that’s a big deal. So, it’s interesting to think about that being squashed in you. I don’t—I can’t fathom that’s actually important.

Matt: It was difficult. And no disrespect, that was just the culture at the time at that company. It’s changed dramatically. But, yeah, just being strategic partners, but also, like, you were pointing out, so understanding the quantitative data, but also the qualitative, and also what’s happening second—what other resources you have, secondary data, or just what’s happening in macro and micro economics of your industry or category. It’s the effective researchers now are the folks who are aware of all those things and are not just looking at the survey results, right? Because the survey results, you know, let’s be honest. Sometimes people don’t tell the complete truth in a survey, and you know, you sometimes have to extrapolate from what they’re saying to what’s really happening in the marketplace, right? You know, the old adage is, if you ask people what kind of television program they would like to see, they would tell you, you know, high-minded British documentaries and dramas, right? Nobody ever tells you they want to see, you know, Jerry Springer or some version of that. But you have to understand what’s happening in the marketplace. And then, you know, take all aspects and, you know, an all-encompassing point-of-view. So, I again, if it’s a skill, I think it’s just being multi-faceted in your insights and not just focusing on one element.

Karen: Yeah. I know, I really, I appreciate that, kind of, having a macro view of the world and also being able to connect the dots—correct me if I’m wrong—but from the different data points, right, whether qualitative, quantitative, you know, online. I remember—when you have age on your side, I remember when online reviews were first a thing, before people started mining them so deeply that, you know, one of the clients that I worked with, like, let’s also start mining some of these reviews [laugh]. Like, yeah, let’s do that. And we started to do some review mining to fold into our more holistic reporting back to the C-suite there. And that’s just an example. Use more tools, perhaps, to be able to be, kind of, a holistic researcher, not just one area of expertise. Probably important, even if you’re trying to focus on data and analytics right now, to have that macro view. Glad you shared that.

Matt: Absolutely. 

Karen: Is there anything on the flip side that you think is kind of being deprioritized in the hiring process or the recruitment process? 

Matt: Yeah, I wouldn’t say deprioritize. I would say that some of the skills that we were all taught and that are still being taught, you know, statistics, you know, differences in methodology and questionnaire design and those sorts of things, those are all table stakes now, right, and you have to have those skills. So, it’s a bit more challenging right now if you’re entering into this space, or you’re evolving in your career, it’s a bit more challenging to stay current because you do have to continue to up your game and to add skills and layer on those skills because the things that differentiated you as a, you know, a great researcher because you were great at stats, are kind of, you know, those are the table stakes right now. So again, going back to my early days at General Motors, Debbie Pruent, who ended up having a great career at GFK, literally sat across the hall from me. And I would walk over to her office because she was a stats wiz, with every single, you know, fundamental question of stats that I could, you know, that I had, right, because I was really deficient in that. And it’s funny, she actually put together a little tutorial that we did through several lunch-and-learns that she called ‘Stats for Brats,’ where she brought all of us MBAs up to speed on stats. You know, and she was able to automate all these great things, whereas in the days when that stuff wasn’t available, but now, those things are pretty much table stakes. Really, you have to know your stuff. You’ve got to have those, you know, the social science skills in order to operate. But they’re not really differentiators anymore. One of the things I do want to refer back to our earlier conversation about the skills is Tim Hoskins wrote a great book called, I think it’s Insights on the Brink. In that book, there’s a section that he talks about the skills that he thinks we need to recruit for and to change our minds in terms of insights, and it’s stuff that is just—it sounds completely reasonable, but it’s really radical for researchers. Like, we need to recruit people and to tell people they need to be more persuasive. You know, they have to have, as we were talking about before, a point of view. Because a lot of times your clients don’t want to hear the bad news, and sometimes you’re going to have to schmooze them a little bit and get them over maybe some of their internal objections. And that’s not easy to do if you’re just reading, you know, the report and saying the blue bar is bigger than the red bar. So, having those human skills, where you’re able to, you know, be persuasive, be a bit of a salesperson, too. There’s nothing wrong with doing that because sometimes there’s organizational resistance to what’s happening and if you’re lacking in those skills. You know, nothing is worse than spending all this time and money to collect information and to gather information only to see it, you know, just left on the floor and not, you know, incorporated into actual action.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. I love that. You know, we talk so much about storytelling in this industry, finding the story, telling the story, but we don’t necessarily talk about the communication of the story, and you know, the approach to be persuasive. So, I’m glad you called that out because all of it matters, the how you communicate the findings—how you communicate the story you’re telling [laugh]. It’s like a whole different nuance.

Matt: Full credit to Tim. I would strongly advise people to get his book. I’m really lucky. Tim’s going to come and speak at the Spartan Insight Summit next week in East Lansing—

Karen: Cool. 

Matt: —and just thrilled to get him in front of all of our students. So, I want to point to that and say, “Guys, he’s talking to you. This is exactly the sort of things that you guys need to be able to do.” 

Karen: Yeah, yeah. So, cool. So, cool. So, I really do need to talk about AI, right, and [laugh]—

Matt: Wait, what’s that? 

Karen: —here we’ve been talking for more than half an hour already, and we haven’t gone there yet, so I give us credit [laugh]. But AI and hiring; to what extent is it… is it changing things? Has it changed things in both, you know, we’ll start with the hiring process because I think that might be most of interest to people, to potential candidates who are listening, like, you know, and then we could talk about whether they should be using it. But first, let’s talk about how it’s shaping things on the, you know, on the hiring side.

Matt: First of all, yeah, AI, I’ve never heard of this. What is this again? You’ll have to tell me what it is. No, it is absolutely changing everything. I mean, there have been automated versions of keyword searches in everybody’s applicant tracking system. If I opened up my ATS over my right shoulder, I could show you how, just doing basic things with, you know, a database full of resumes, I can come up with 20 or 30 resumes that most meet the criteria I’m looking for and recruiters have been doing that for years, right? Those are table stakes, again. And every hiring company has that same capability, right? So, all of those things are, kind of, what we’ve been doing, but the tools that are now coming online with AI capabilities, are taking that, you know, to extremes now, right? And, you know, I think it’s all for the better, ultimately. We’re going to get better in more efficient searches, I think it’s going to give candidates the opportunity to be more visible and have a have greater—and I’ll get to exactly why, but focusing on the client side, you know, again, I think they’re going to be able to find, first of all, communicate their roles better, just by having, you know better job descriptions and better—even one step further back—just a better understanding of their talent needs, right? There’s some great tools for just kind of assessing, well, do we really need the team set up the way that we have it or can we alter that? And then defining your jobs and your roles better, understanding your marketplace better, which includes salary and benefits and everything else, right? Because what it takes to attract somebody in New York City is very different than what it takes to attract somebody in Omaha, Nebraska, and so those tools are going to allow hiring managers to be more sophisticated in their hiring. So, there’s a lot of really good benefits. I know there’s a fear that folks are going to be filtered out of the process, right? Like, oh, AI is going to filter me out because I don’t have the right, you know, resume or whatever. I think that’s possible, but that happens now, right? That happens with any applicant tracking system. It’s probably more likely that the sophisticated AI tools are actually going to give the hiring manager some of those diamond in the roughs, or, you know, non-traditional candidates who might really excel. All of us, as recruiters, can tell, you know, tell stories about, hey, I talked to this candidate; it didn’t appear to look like a great fit, but then—you know, it turns out I had one client who I had that situation with, right, and I introduced him to the client. Afterwards, the president of the company called me and said, “You know, Matt, I wasn’t sure I should have had that conversation. I didn’t see the real connection until I had the conversation.” And he said, “Now, I think that she’s probably going to run our company, at some point.” And he was right and she ended up being the president of the company. But that happens every once in a while. I think it’s going to happen more often with some of the AI capabilities that are out there.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. On the flip side, thinking about the candidate now, so—you know, sidebar story, I talked to somebody who you know is like toying with, you know, is AI updating a resume the right decision, right? Should I trust AI to update my resume because it’s so easy to do that? Or should AI, you know, draft my cover letter? Should AI find me the position? Should an AI agent apply to those positions for me? Like, all of the tools that are available to a candidate, what do you see kind of happening in that space? And are there either words of advice or cautionary tales or anything that you would share? Should they lean in and say, use the tools, or should they be cautious?

Matt: Absolutely, use the tools. But with caution, right? Don’t completely turn everything over to it, but absolutely leverage what’s out there. I had a great conversation with somebody just the other day who said—and this was amazing what this candidate did on her own—you know, she’s like, “Well, Matt, I put in the job description, and I told the I told AI that I wanted to build an interview and have, you know, the AI tool, interview me and then grade my performance.” And she did this all on her own. And I was like, “Well, first of all, that’s brilliant. Second of all, it’s the old adage, to get good at something, you got to practice it, right?” And this person had not done a lot of interviewing because she had been recruited from—you know, like, her boss at a former company brought her to her new company, you know, that sort of thing. Never had to go through the interview process. And she’s like, “I was rusty and I didn’t know what to do.” And after doing a couple series of those, she was ready for, you know, she was ready for prime time. And she said, “Yeah, I would have stumbled in the first couple of interviews because I hadn’t done it in 12 years.” And yeah, so those things are really hard to replace, and those are two capabilities. But also going back to just helping to create marketing materials. Like, I am a huge believer that we’re all marketing at all the time, right? And in our LinkedIn profiles and even our postings on social media should have a thought towards, okay, what are we trying to say here? What kind of image are we trying to build? What are we trying to communicate to our colleagues, our industry? And the AI tools are great at doing that, right? So, engage those and try to build your brand. There’s a woman named J.T. O’Donnell who I absolutely like, you know, in terms of her ability to create really great candidate coaching, if you will, and one of the things she mentions is a unique selling proposition, right? So, AI tools can help you, you know, boil down to what is your unique selling proposition and how can you differentiate yourself and what can you say in a meaningful and specific way to get the attention of a hiring manager? So, yeah, all of those things are absolutely wonderful. I think it’s going to be better for recruiting and better for candidates, especially for candidates. 

Karen: Yeah. I know somebody else who recorded, kind of, you know, using a transcription tool, recorded the interview, fed it into AI, and asked, you know, kind of, how do you think I did? And, you know, it gave that, like, “Hey, here’s what you did well. Here’s what you could improve the next time.” Like, it gave, kind of, feedback. Now, whether it was the right feedback, who knows, but it was feedback, you know? Somebody who could listen in on your interview and then let you know how they thought you did afterwards. I’m like, AI is pretty cool [laugh]. 

Matt: Yeah and, you know, it’s hard to get upset or mad at a computer program, right? If I gave that advice to somebody, that might be offensive, but if they hear it from literally a neutral party, it could be a little bit easier to digest, right? 

Karen: Yeah. I do want to ask. I’m looking at the clock, and I’m thinking, oh, man, we, you know, we’ve got, like, five minutes left max here, so already I’m at 45 minutes and I always try to—[laugh] I always do this. But I do have another question. You know… this kind of has to do with the idea of back to the office or remote working. You know, I am lucky. I have worked in my home, actually, in this home, since, you know, 2000, since 1999, you know? I have not gone to an office and so I was already well established during Covid, when a lot of people were brought home. Now, people are being brought back to an office. What is the latest on, kind of, work from home, remote working, hybrid working? What’s the latest on that?

Matt: There’s definitely a shift in at least hybrid and in some cases, complete return to office. We have seen that with client-side companies going back a couple of years, right? So, client-side companies invested a lot of money in real estate, so they’ve got offices all over the country, and they want to put people into their offices. They’re tired of paying for rent, or having a building that’s sitting empty when, you know, they could have bodies in there, which is the purpose of it. Not all companies, you know, that’s not, doesn’t describe everybody, but that is one of the motivations. And there’s some really good reasons for that, right? If you’ve got everybody in one place, all of those informal interactions that happen in the office are occurring, right? So, somebody’s walking down to go to the lunch room or whatever, they bump into a colleague, and, you know, there’s that natural spark that happens. Or, if you just simply have a question that you wouldn’t probably Zoom call somebody or call them up, you can ask a quick question. And especially for younger associates, right? Working in an office with other professionals, especially folks you can learn from, is invaluable. I tell that to our students. I’ve told it to my own children. Going into a place where you’re going to be rubbing elbows with your peers, especially senior people, gives you an opportunity to learn from them that you wouldn’t get if you were working remotely. And then they go—you know, my kids are like, “Well, Dad, you work from home. How do you”—and I’m like, “Yeah well, don’t do as I do. Do as”—you know—“Do as I say.”

Karen: Well, or certainly, you know, Greenbook is a virtual company and I will say we use our Slack, man. We use our Slack as if we are walking down a hallway. We are like, “Got a second?” You know? “Hey, quick question.” Like, we use our Slack like nobody’s business here. And I think—

Matt: And you have to do that, absolutely. You’ve got to—the corporate culture, the companies that do it, well—remote—that is absolutely ingrained in their culture. But I do think that there is that shift. So, we’re going to be seeing more of that. What it’s going to mean to candidates is that those remote opportunities are going to be fewer and tougher—fewer and further between and more difficult to get. Now, I totally get it, right? Like for me, this has been a great lifestyle change—I suspect it has been for you—to work remotely. And I know there are a lot of folks who, there are very unique situations that working remotely is really only the viable option, otherwise they’re out of the workforce. And we don’t want that either, right? So, I know that it’s not going to be without a fair amount of discomfort and pain, right? That there’s going to be some problems associated with that, but at the same time, I totally understand, from the client’s perspective, why we want to have people back in the office. 

Karen: Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for that. I know that would have been a burning question that I had as I’ve talked to, again, some people that are looking and that is a deal breaker, and they’re like, “God, I just—you know, it’s hard to let go of,” right? But that might also be aging some people, right? There may be new people who are, like, “Cool, bring it on,” new people to the industry who haven’t known it the other way, you know, and now they’re looking for that social interaction as well, which I think happens in their 20s, in particular. Anyway, for the sake of time, I already have to jump ahead to, like, gosh, what’s a question that you really wanted to talk about that I didn’t get to? Because we could talk for two hours.

Matt: Well, so this is sort of a send up to Greenbook too, right? You know, this is way too early to tell. This is my bold prediction, if you will. I do think that with all the radical changes that are going on technologically, and you know, just in the industry in general, but hiring in specific, that I do think that finally, companies are going to be more open to hiring gig workers, if you will. I know Lenny has been talking about this for 15 or 20 years, right? And I really get the feeling that, more and more, there’s going to be opportunities to do that. So, there’s going to be some real benefits of that, obviously, to the employees because they’ll be able to pick and choose what projects they want to work on, they’ll likely be able to work from home in some of those situations, but also for the employers, right? You won’t have the burden of taking on full-time employees when you know, you just have to ramp up for this project, and then maybe that’ll be for six months or a year, and after that, you’re not certain. So, you know, there’s some give and take with that, right? So, you’re going to have to pay folks a little bit more in terms of an hourly wage, but, you know, you don’t have these longevity costs. I do think that some of the things that are happening with technology are going to enable that, and so what used to be very nascent in terms of, you know, the number of contractors slash gig workers is going to grow. I could be completely wrong, but I have this feeling that you’re going to start seeing that—

Karen: Yeah. Well, yeah, what I keep thinking is, there’s going to be a lot of people who are self-employed in our industry who are like, “All right, I’m ready.” So, [laugh] you know, those are some people that have been doing different types of gigs, even if they’re research projects, you know, ad hoc research projects. But from what I’m understanding, a gig worker might be beyond just a research project, but maybe it’s different aspects of, you know, maybe your particular gig—sort of like when I was a qualitative researcher and then I was hiring a report writer. You know, it’s like, you know, maybe I’m just hiring a report writer for just this one project, you know? Like, different facets of the job could be brought in by somebody else. Anyway, so very interesting.

Matt: Yeah, it’s worked extremely well in the qualitative space.

Karen: It has. It has.

Matt: A lot of amazing qualitative worker researchers who have never been part of a full-time employment situation at a GFK or whatever. They’ve worked, you know, yeah, yeah, gig workers or contracts for their entire careers.

Karen: Yeah. It’s very interesting. Anyway, well look, that really has to be our time, but thank you so much, Matt. What a pleasure talking to you. I could go on for hours, and I am sure our audience is, you know, going to be, you know, thrilled with this episode. Probably have a listen over and over again. Thank you so much.

Matt: It has been my pleasure, Karen. It’s always great to talk with you and a huge fan of Greenbook, so yeah, just honored to be here. 

Karen: Well, thank you again. And I’m sure I will see you at an event soon enough. What a pleasure. Thank you to our entire team that puts these episodes out there. Thank you to our editor, Big Bad Audio. Appreciate what you do. And also to our listeners. Thank you for showing up week after week. We so appreciate you. Until next time, we’ll see you again. Thanks for listening to the Greenbook Podcast. Bye-bye.