Changing Lenses: Reframing Research for Deeper Insights and Wider Impact with Jasmin Goodman

From the ivy-covered walls of academia to the front lines of societal impact, discover how one visionary is translating research into tangible change.

Join Karen Lynch in an inspiring conversation with Jasmin Goodman, a trailblazer in qualitative research and a 2024 Future List honoree, on this week's episode of the Greenbook Podcast. Jasmin, the visionary behind the J. Michelle Group, dives into her transformative journey from academia to the forefront of qualitative research, spotlighting her endeavors to elevate the voices of Black consumers and ensure their experiences are heard. Discover the impact of her work on cultural intelligence training, her advocacy in the medical research field, and her deep commitment to community uplift. This episode offers a rare glimpse into the power of research as a tool for positive change and the profound personal and professional fulfillment it brings.

You can reach out to Jasmin on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Jasmin for being our guest. Thanks also to our producer, Natalie Pusch; and our editor, Big Bad Audio.

Transcript

Karen: Hello, everybody, this is Karen Lynch, and I want to welcome you to another episode of the Greenbook Podcast. Today’s episode is going to be a fun one for me. I always love when I talk to other people who have expertise in qualitative research, so from one qualie to another, I’m so excited to welcome our guest here. We have with you Jasmin Goodman, who happens to have a PhD, so she may be Dr. Goodman to you, but she has given me [laugh] permission to refer to her as Jasmin. Jasmin, welcome to the show.

Jasmin: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Karen: It’s great to have you. And let me set a little bit of context, and then I’m going to turn it back over for Jasmin to introduce herself to us. She is one of our 2024 Future List honorees, I think the first that we are featuring on our podcast, so we’re excited about that. She is the founder and principal researcher at the J. Michelle Group. And if you don’t know the J. Michelle Group, I’ll give you a quick little spoiler. They provide strategic intelligence and Engagement Services to brands, corporations, government agencies, and counting among their strategic intelligence offerings is qualitative research consulting, which I just love, you know, qualitative research with a push towards strategy. So, I’m excited to learn a little bit more, Jasmin. What can you tell our audience about yourself? That’s kind of current before we get into your background to help further position you in their minds?

Jasmin: Yes, so thank you, and so great to be here again. So again, my name is Jasmin Goodman, founder and principal of the J. Michelle Group, a qualitative research and comms consultancy. Although I do general audience studies, some of the work that I found to be most fulfilling has been my work that really centers and amplifies the voice of black consumers and patients. And then I’m also really enjoying providing the cultural intelligence training because that allows me to provide—bring in my academic training along with the really timely needs of cultural intelligence in the industry. So, that’s a bit about me. I’m also a proud HBCU alumna of both Clark Atlanta University and Howard University.

 

Karen: That’s so excellent. I love reading about that. I have, actually, a lot of children who are in the greater DC area, and have checked out most of the schools in DC, so kudos to you. I love that. Thank you. And I know, like, we added it to our brief at the end, and I will circle back to it, but just in the world of cultural intelligence, I’m really excited because we’ve invited Jasmin to speak, and of course, she has accepted, in her role as a Future List honoree at IIEX North America, and she will be speaking on our, kind of, track that is going to be the Future List honorees, but we have other work that’s happening in cultural intelligence as well. So, really excited. I’ll tell you more about that talk later. But thank you for being, for being you because I get to invite you here because you received the honor of Future List honoree. Which is no small thing, and I want to dig into that, with first, kind of getting to why you think you came to be where you are at this place where not only were you nominated, but the judges saw something special in you. Tell us about your journey.

Jasmin: Right, so I would say that I’ve always been a teacher, and I love sharing information, so for me, and when I hear people toss around terms like ‘leader’ and ‘future leader,’ I’m like, “Well, I’m still finding my way.” But I have been intentional about making sure that any information that I have, I share it with others because I believe in lifting as we climb. So, as I’m on my journey of establishing myself in this industry, I want to make sure that I can identify or either create inroads for others to also win. I will say that I’ve been blessed in this community, in this industry, to find community where I will send an email or send a LinkedIn message, and others have been willing to share with me. And so, my goal is to be the person that I needed two years ago, and share as much information as possible. And so, I think that is one of the reasons why I was able—I won’t say stand out because I’ve met some amazing people, but I’ve led with that intention, and I’ve been rewarded because of that.

 

Karen: I love the phrase ‘lifting as we climb.’ I think that at a certain point, in our careers, that should absolutely be something we focus on as we continue. Because you’re not done, right? You’re not sitting back saying, “Now, I’m going to help others.” And that’s one way of looking at it, right, but you’re still climbing, and you’re going to just help others up. There’s a great image in my mind of, you know, somebody who’s climbing the rock wall but reaching down their arm to others to help them come with them on the journey, not just lifting them up from the top. So, kudos to you. I like it. Might have to be borrowing that phrase in future.

Jasmin: [laugh]. Okay.

 

Karen: [laugh]. Trademark it. No [unintelligible 00:04:48]. So, any advice you have, like, thinking of others, other than that—which is great advice, right—but advice for people who are maybe still, you know where you were maybe just two years ago, what’s sort of the words of wisdom from somebody who’s gotten to this place where you’re doing that lifting already?

Jasmin: Right. For me, I would say that joining organizations, attending conferences, like IIEX North America—plug [laugh]—

 

Karen: Thank you, thank you.

Jasmin: —but I’ve found so much value in just getting in front of people and not running from my academic training, but leaning on it, recognizing that there is a different pace and cadence when you’re doing academic research versus commercial research, but there’s still a value there. And so, let that be—I actually had a manager told me once to let my academic training be my superpower because that was something that distinguished me. So, I didn’t try and blend in and act like that part of my life didn’t exist because it did, and that’s really helped me in having conversations. And even just people being impressed that I had the courage to leave academia because that’s such a safe job path and career path. And so—and there are also a lot of PhDs working in industry that are just like, “Oh, my gosh, I’ll help you. Let me know what you need.” And so, that’s been helpful. So, I would say informational interviews, conference attendance, leaning into your strengths, don’t run from it, but that academic training can be your superpower as you navigate this career path and his journey.

 

Karen: I love that. And I know, we talked at the pre-show, folks, about how Jasmin, you know, used to have a podcast that was really focused on, kind of, that transition from academia into the world. So, it wasn’t on our brief, so I’m putting you on the spot here with a question about that. What are some of the qualities, some of the things that an academic researcher might have as those strengths? Like, what are some of the attributes that you think you developed and that others in that space might have developed that actually will serve them well?

 

Jasmin: I would definitely say a commitment to rigor. That’s something that because when we talk about rigor in the industry—and probably the best expression I’ve ever heard about the differences between academic and commercial research, a friend of mine said that academic research is an inch wide, but a mile deep, and then commercial research, obviously, is going to be different, where it’s a mile wide and an inch deep. Respectfully, but there are just differences because within commercial research, you really don’t have the time to get that depth. But I’ve been able to—I worked on a study with a hospitality company, and I was able to pull in peer-reviewed articles and research to help inform our discussion guide, and so that made it much more rich in findings for the client. I also worked on pharma project where I was able to pull in a public health—social determinants of health framework, and so being able to incorporate these, you know, tried and tested frameworks that we rely on in academic research and bringing that in a way that makes sense to commercial projects, I think that’s probably the best way. But of course, it depends on the environment that you’re in, but I would say that rigor and also that depth of knowledge and being able to source peer-reviewed articles, and then translate that into a way that makes sense for the project at hand.

 

Karen: I love that. Thank you. It’s funny, you also you mentioned these frameworks, and I think a few years ago was when I first became quite aware of how much professionals in the insights industry actually love a good framework. Like, give them a framework. Like, if you’re coming to one—if you want to speak at one of our events, you know, talk about a framework that you have and how you’re forcing connections into it. We just love being able to understand things via a framework. So, that’s a great thing to borrow for any researcher. Like, look to the world of academia and say, are there frameworks I can use? Behavioral science, we talk about that a lot, right, behavioral methods. How can we take this framework and apply it to our work? Or how can we create a framework—even better—you know, for our work to help our clients understand what we’re doing. So anyway, that’s a separate soapbox that I can get on, but frameworks people—spoiler alert frameworks [laugh]. Anyway, you also mentioned—and I want to go there right away—you also mentioned, you know, kind of some of your, the organizations that you’re involved with. You know, I know we talked QRCA and getting involved in that. I know you’re also in WIRe, Women in Research, which is also another one that I’m in. Let’s just talk a little bit about those organizations, and how, as a Future List honoree, but also just as a woman in the industry, how those have helped you and what your recommendation would be for others.

Jasmin: Right. So, I first found QRCA before I graduated, and I didn’t even realize that qualitative research consulting was a thing. My pa—my plan—excuse me—was to become a professor and teach and consult in some way, but I wasn’t quite sure how I could do that. QRCA gave me clarity. Women in Research empowered me because I was connected with a mentor, so I was a part of the mentorship—or mentee program, and that was phenomenal. I was able to work with a market research executive, we met every month, and just having someone that could be that early guidance in my career path was… it was a Godsend. It really did change a lot for me. And then even—I’ll even jump back to QRCA—I found that qualies, we are some of the most loving and warm people that you will ever meet. So, my first time going to the QRCA conference, I kept saying, “This feels like a family reunion because I’ve connected with you all, either via email or LinkedIn, I’ve reacted to your posts.” But just to be in a space where everyone is just committed to just the method and having a conversation about how we can grow the space and grow the organization. So, I have been blessed. And I even attended the Insights Association Conference, which is where a group that we are now naming the Culture MRX kind of came to be. And it’s been really great because I’ve found—and I keep saying the word community, but I’ve almost found, like, different pockets of community within this industry, and that has been great in providing that professional guidance, but then just also as a woman researcher, a black researcher, a black, woman researcher, having people that I can talk to and reach out to and really have candid conversations, and I know that they’re genuinely invested in me, and it’s not just transactional, but it’s a true authentic relationship that’s being developed. So, I—and even going back to the advice about people that are wanting to advance, I would say, join the organizations. If you’re a company has a membership, take advantage of it because you can’t lose if you’re just meeting and building relationships with people that can help you with your career.

Karen: Absolutely, and I concur, share your affinity for both of those organizations. So, QRCA member and WIRe member, and also a WIRe mentor myself, which I love the relationships that I’ve built through that program as well. And you’re right. I think that, you know, for you, for the purposes of this conversation, let alone the interview, there will be QRCA members at IIEX, so you will meet them. And there’s also going to be other Culture MRX people there. Last year, the organization had a kiosk; I believe we have something in the works as well for that. So, let’s just go to that organization, which may not be as familiar to others. You were a founding member, correct?

Jasmin: Yes, yes. So, Culture MRX, this is really I have to give all kudos to Kai Fuentes, with the Ebony Market Research Group. She’s someone that has been intentional about building relationships with up-and-coming black researchers, and she was able to work with I believe it was the Insights Association, and she got us a couple of discounted passes. And we were able to get there because, starting out, you don’t necessarily have all the resources to afford attending these conferences, especially as an independent. So, I have to really be intentional about what organizations, what conferences, I choose to attend. And so, we just happened to all meet in the lobby of the conference hotel, and it was like, “Oh, hey.” “Hey.” And we started realizing that we know a lot of the same people, and Kai was making sure that we connected. And we saw an opportunity to not necessarily have this separate organization, but have something that works across all organizations that can really be a voice for the black consumer experience, but also a voice for the black researcher experience. So, kind of tackling it from, you know, you have someone that’s working within a corporation, but then also someone that’s conducting that research. So, it’s been great. I’ve kind of taken on the role of director of academic engagement and outreach because I’m always trying to find ways to blend academia and industry because I don’t think they have to be separate. And so, we’re in the works now of trying to create a pipeline of talent from HBCUs into the industry, and preparing them, whether it’s a skill set need or just professional development or even just having the opportunity, but we want to make sure that we can be the people that we needed when we first started in this industry.

Karen: Yeah. I love that. That’s great, thank you. And do you have any kind of examples, or is it too soon in that organization’s growth, examples of how it has helped individuals starting out or, you know, kind of emerging careers within the industry?

Jasmin: Oh, my gosh, absolutely. So, because of Culture MRX, the person that nominated me was actually someone that I met through Culture MRX. I’ve also been referred for freelance opportunities. So, what I love about an organization is when I can speak to, one, the personal benefits, but also the professional benefits, and then being able to translate that into an actual business outcome. So, I’ve had speaking opportunities, I’ve seen a lot of positive feedback, and positive—I’ve had a lot of positive experiences as a result of being a member of Culture MRX. So, the tangible outcomes are real, and it’s been—it’s [audio break 00:14:43]—

Karen: That’s great, yeah. And I think that, you know, what you’re alluding to is this—I’ve said this about QRCA before, also, this generosity of spirit that happens when you get together with peers in that little subcategory. And the same thing will happen at WIRe, you know? Members of WIRe, there’s this feeling of genuine generosity where you really want the others in the sub-communities to succeed, and you want to give them that arm up, right, give them that lift because you have these commonalities. So yeah, no, that’s awesome. I look forward to seeing that organization evolve. And yeah, I’m actually really looking forward to you seeing everybody from across all of those at [laugh] our North America event. That’ll be great. And talk about a family reunion, right? You’re going to have all these families to juggle [laugh].

Jasmin: [crosstalk 00:15:31].

Karen: So, let’s dig in a little bit more to your work, also, because it is really important, you know? And I think part of your journey in this industry has been talking about the African American community’s lived experience, and how you’re doing research in that space. But also it started in school, right? You were dealing with race and gender as part of your dissertation, right? So, take us on that journey for you. Obviously, you know, we can’t talk about every little detail, but within this context, talk 

Jasmin: Well, first of all, thank you for throwing that out there because as an academic, I want to talk about all of my research and all the details, so I will try to keep it as succinct as possible. But my PhD is in Communication, Culture, and Media Studies from Howard University. My dissertation was an exploration of the role of race and gender inside of the TV writers’ room. And the goal of that research was to explore, what are some of the experiences of writers that impact their ability to tell an authentic story on screen? How does their identity come into play when they’re having conversations, and they’re developing the storylines and the characters? And so, that work has been important because I never saw myself represented in academic research. It wasn’t until I got to Howard where I was introduced to critical research, which is research that has an emancipatory potential. So, it’s used as a tool of liberation. I didn’t even know that existed, I didn’t even know that was a thing, and so having that critical orientation to academic research has really positioned me to want to say, “How can research we use as a tool for advancement,” understanding that a commercial research, you know, we’re concerned, our clients are wanting to make sure that they are—you know, profits, that’s important, talking about money, all of that is important, but for me, it’s been how can I take this critical orientation and research that I have a use it as a means of community uplift? So, you have some people who are activists, there are some people who are advocates, and I’ve just found my way of using research as a means of community advancement.

Karen: I love that. And, you know, I think that we’re going to take a little sidebar in this conversation and go to some of your volunteer work because you talk about advocacy professionally, but you’re also doing it personally in the foster care system. So, tell me how some of your skills are translating into that space for you.

Jasmin: I would definitely say that—so I am a CASA, which is a Court-Appointed Special Advocate for children in foster care. It is the person that makes sure that—like, they interface with not only the child, but also the foster parent, the teachers or doctors, they have this 360 approach to make sure that while the child is in care, they have everything that they need. And I would say that, in terms of how that work relates, I am also the instrument—because, as qualitative researchers, we are the instrument—and I see myself as a research instrument, finding out information and sourcing information to identify the best possible solutions for this child. So, it’s a different use of it, but in terms of, like, my role, is still making sure that I am using the skill set that I have. And of course, interviewing helps being able to build a rapport that also helps to have some difficult conversations with people who are going through a very difficult time in life. But yet, I would say that that’s how I see how all of that works together. And then also with qualitative research, our goal is to lead with empathy and to foreground humanity, and that’s really how I see those two things working together.

Karen: Yep, that’s excellent. And it’s interesting, my brain, when you talked about kind of this 360 view of the situation there, I started to think, that’s actually what the researcher, the service that a researcher provides, on some level, for clients is, let me try to give you a 360 view of the situation that we’re in or the challenge we’re addressing because we are digging into nuances that they may not even really know existed, they didn’t know that I should be asking this question, but here we are asking it. So, another great kind of metaphor for the work is this 360 view. So, I love this conversation, Jasmin. I’m [laugh] just happy to be talking to you. And again, when I engage with our Future List honorees, very often what I’m saying is, “Yes, this makes sense. This is what our judges saw in you.” It’s just sort of excellence in the work that you do, and it comes out in many areas, right, industry—explaining the Future List judging criteria, it comes out in kind of the work that they do, but then the volunteer work that they do within the industry, and then what they might be doing in their personal life. It’s like this person who fully embodies what we need the industry to be comprised of individuals like yourself. So, just thank you for indulging with some of that. Let’s talk a little bit about some of the medical space that you operate in, and, you know, patient, patient work. So, I know that there’s probably more than one that you’ve been involved in, but there’s also some really unique needs within the black community from a patient perspective that you’ve also had a hand in. So, tell me about that work?

 

Jasmin: Yes. This work has probably been the most fulfilling. I did a postdoc that was somewhat related to public health, but I am nowhere near the hard sciences at all, and I would say I did a study—it was actually my second project, and it was on the needs of black lupus patients. And they were talking about clinical trials. And I thought it was interesting; I wanted to help. And being able to be a voice for a patient who, statistically we know is often overlooked or not fully heard when they go to the doctor or when they’re in contact with their care professionals, and so I would say that that’s been the most meaningful work. I’ve done work also, with rare disease patients. I’ve done about four or five different studies with that. And being able to and I’ll say that one of my frustrations with academia is that we publish this work, and then the work sits in a journal and somebody might come across it at some point in time, maybe. And if they come across it, and if they happen to cite it, it only ends up in another journal that someone might potentially possibly read. But being able to, doing this work, say the things that need to be said to the people that can do something about it has been the most empowering moment of my career, where I can say to the head of this, you know, pharmaceutical company that, you know, these patients need this type of support because, one, they have a rare disease that most doctors don’t even understand, two, they’re already not being heard because of their identifiers, three, they don’t have the resources to find someone else in their space. Here are some ways that you can support them. And then to have the client team saying, “Oh, we never thought about that. Okay.” And they’re taking it, and they’re making it actionable. I think that that’s actually a space that I will want to do more work in because I think about my grandfather, my grandmother, my parents as I’ve had to kind of step in, in somewhat of a caregiver role at times, and thinking about feeling not hurt at all, and having them say that they don’t feel hurt by their care team. So, for me, that work is personal and professional because I directly identify with it. So, that’s been some really, really exciting work, and we’ve seen some really great outcomes as a result of that work.

Karen: I love that. Thank you for sharing. And yeah, I’m pleased when I hear people say, you know, that they’ve had fulfilling work in this industry. Because a lot of times, we can fall into the trap of—and by we, I mean, kind of collectively, I have felt this, and I’ve talked to others who have—it’s, like, you know, a lot of it is commercialization of products, and you know, helping corporate America sell more somethings, right? So, a lot of people can go to that side and say, some of the work that we do, really just is feeding a machine of more, more, more. And then we talk to people who are doing amazing things that really help humanity and kind of progression of the world and doing a huge service to human beings. So, our industry, same skill sets, same sorts of applications, but being applied in a very important and meaningful way. So, thank you for sharing.

Jasmin: Yeah, and one thing I will say, I think that that’s where a lot of PhDs struggle because they are used to identifying a gap and, like, a critical need with their research, and they’re focused on okay, I’m doing this in order to advance the field of study and to make an impact. And so, when you have to kind of flip that switch, and it’s about driving profits, it feels icky, it feels uncomfortable, and so there is this balance of, you know, how can I take this skill set, make an impact in a way that I feel comfortable making an impact, but also still be able to meet and address the needs of either the client team or my organization that I’m working with. So, balancing those, I won’t say they’re competing priorities, but I think that you need to recognize that there are different priorities in the work that we do, and strive for a balance with those because it can be tedious when you’re so focused on the commercial work, that you’re not able to kind of get that work that really ignites you.

Karen: Yeah, and I think we’re lucky to be in the qualitative space. You know, I kind of put my qualitative consulting on a shelf when I started here at Greenbook, but the idea that we can sit in a room and talk to individuals about their needs, about their pain points, helping them ladder up to higher-end benefits and figuring out why something that might seem benign, why this hand cream, for example, I’ll just pull—you know, why this hand cream actually helps them with their self-esteem and their confidence. And we are doing good work, even if it feels like we’re not, when we stay in the qualitative space, and we try to understand human beings and what their needs and pain points are. So, for the PhDs who are trying to figure this out, recognize there is a home for that sort of thing. You just have to attract that type of work, right, where you’re really exploring the consumers’ lived experiences, right? So, another thing that I see on your LinkedIn profile—so again, not in the brief, and I apologize, but you’re rolling with it all so beautifully—but it’s this other, you know, postdoc research that you did, for, by the way, $1.7 million on Covid-19 Racial Stigma Project. Like, can you tell us—aka me—a little bit more about that? Because that also seems incredibly interesting. It was co-led by Howard University at UCLA, and funded by the CDC, like, Foundation. Like, can you tell me more? That’s impressive.

Jasmin: So, as I’m sure you can recall, April 2020, the world was on fire, and [laugh] because I was graduating, and there were no real opportunities because no one was hiring because we didn’t know what was going on in terms of academia, a colleague and incoming professor at Howard invited me to become a postdoc, which is a postdoctoral research fellow. It is the job that you get after you finish your PhD, but not necessarily before you start—or before you start teaching. And so, that work was interesting because as an Ethnic Media Fellow, I would do content analyses and thematic analyses of newspapers, and how are these different outlets covering Covid-19 as it relates to different communities? Are there any differences? Are there any biases built into how these stories are told that can impact how people receive this? And so, that was really, really interesting work. It was a part of a larger—that 1.7, unfortunately, it wasn’t just for the ethnic media side of things; it was for, like, this larger dashboard that they were building out. But that was really great work. It was really intense work, and I think that’s when we—going back to we talked about having that balance because when you’re so focused on, you know, doing this deep work into social stigma, racial stigma, and Covid-19 work, you become emotionally overwhelmed and burdened. So, I was actually excited to work on a commercial project, just to make sure that I had some type of a balance. But that was really interesting work, and we’re in the process of publishing a series of papers that came out of that. But being able to—and I think the next phase of the work—is having conversations with journalists. How can we create a culturally competent news organization or media organization that understands all these different cultural nuances so they can factor that into their reporting about work during crises. So, that was deep work, interesting work, not as exciting for a lot of people, but I was honored to be a part of that project.

 

Karen: What I’m sitting here thinking is that there are researchers, and we are talking to a lot of them, and then there are researchers—

Jasmin: [laugh].

Karen: —with a capital R [laugh]. Jasmin, I applaud you. You’ve done some amazing work, and I’m excited to listen to your talk at North America. As I said, I was going to circle back to this, which, you know, the talk is called “Ethical AI: Researching Black Communities and actually talking about the potential of generative AI for understanding black communities while navigating ethical concerns like bias and representation. And we have a lot of AI content on this agenda, as you can imagine, it’s kind of the way right now, but this talk is so fine-tuned, you’re going to actually be exploring case studies, and I just can’t wait. So, thank you for bringing what promises to be amazing content to that stage.

Jasmin: Thank you. Thank you. And one thing I will say, so as of right now, we don’t have, necessarily, define case studies on ethical AI in terms of the black community, but I’ll be pulling in a lot of academic research from past tech innovations to inform, what are some lessons learned, that we can use to inform how we approach AI? Because it’s still the Wild, Wild West. Everyone’s just kind of doing all these different things. And so, I’m hopeful that I can offer another perspective to that conversation.

Karen: Yeah, and I think that, you know, bias… anyway, that’s a whole—an entirely new conversation, right, that we’re not going to have time to spin off on, but the bias of these large language models is potentially very problematic in that capacity, right? That is one nuance that we have to stay on top of to make sure that it’s not misrepresenting, right?

Jasmin: Absolutely.

Karen: So anyway, so good. Again, glad there’s glad those researchers with a capital R that we can tap into for some of this [laugh] knowledge. Jasmin, anything that I didn’t ask you—before I asked you, like, my final question—is there anything that you know, kind of I didn’t cover that you wanted me to cover today?

Jasmin: No, I think we’ve had a great conversation. I will just say to anyone listening that is considering leaving academia, and they want to dip their toe into the commercial research space, I would say do it. There’s a lot of great support, there are a lot of great organizations that you can join, there are a lot of great resources to learn how to do this. LinkedIn is your friend. Anybody—and I won’t even say it’s just PhDs—anyone that I’ve reached out to in this field with questions, they’ve always been available, so I would just say, for anyone that is thinking about it, don’t be afraid, you can do it, reach out to me reach out to others, but you can find community, and you can find life after academia.

Karen: I love that. Thank you for sharing that so much. And, you know, glad that you are a resource for everybody. So, thank you. So, all right. Kind of, final question that I have for you is, aside from speaking on our stage in Austin, what else is on the horizon for you in 2024? Any, kind of, new things that you’re working on that you’re really excited about? What’s on the horizon?

Jasmin: Yes, so I’ve done some work with EPIC, which is the Ethnography Practice and Industry Conference, and I’m excited to explore service design as a potential offering. The work that I’ve done with patients with rare disease, I see that there’s opportunities to identify and improve service processes, so that’s something that I’m interested in exploring. I’m also just ready to kind of get to a space where I can just slow down and just read some books and kind of re-engage because being outside of academia, I’ve not been as connected. So, I’m looking forward to just a lot of interesting projects and doing work with rare disease patients and service design, but also kind of taking a break and reconnecting with the academic side of things.

Karen: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing. I’m really grateful you are here today.

Jasmin: Thank you so much. It was so great to be here.

Karen: Excellent. I also want to shout out to Natalie Pusch, our producer. Thank you so much, Natalie, for making this happen. Our editor, Big Bad Audio, and of course everybody listening. This is the time when Lenny Murphy, who also hosts the podcast, we always say thank you, listeners, because without you, we would just be putting things out there in the airwaves. So, we appreciate you tuning in each week, and we’ll see you again next time. Thanks.