The Emotional Power of Convenience with Maxalan Vickers of Overtime

What if convenience isn’t just about saving time—but about reducing stress, mental load, and friction? In this episode of The Greenbook Podcast, Karen Lynch sits down with Maxalan Vickers, Senior Insights Manager at Overtime, to explore how empathy, accessibility, and convenience intersect in modern consumer experiences. Drawing from his popular IIEX North America presentation, Maxalan shares why convenience should be viewed as an emotional outcome rather than a functional benefit. He discusses how Gen Z’s expectations are reshaping digital experiences, why insights should focus on relieving uncertainty, and how brands can better design products and services for neurodivergent consumers.

From Apple Wallet and Amazon Prime to sports media and social engagement, this conversation offers a fresh perspective on creating experiences that truly make life easier—while also recognizing when convenience can go too far.

Key Discussion Points:

• Why convenience is the “love child” of empathy and accessibility
• How Overtime built a sports media brand around Gen Z behaviors and preferences
• Defining a great insight as something that “relieves uncertainty”
• The role of cognitive load, neurodiversity, and accessibility in product design
• When convenience becomes harmful: AI, sports betting, infinite scroll, and other cautionary examples
• Why insights teams should ask, “What would make your life easier?” instead of “What do you want?”

Resources & Links:

• Overtime
• IIEX Europe Event

You can reach out to Maxalan Vickers on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Maxalan Vickers for being our guest. Thanks also to our production team and our editor at Big Bad Audio.

Transcript

Karen Lynch: Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Green Book Podcast. I'm Karen Lynch. Very excited to be hosting today with somebody I had the pleasure of meeting at IEX North America in Washington, D.C., just a few weeks ago. I am talking with Maxilyn Vickers. He is the Senior Insights Manager at a company called Overtime. He is

Blending problem solving in the digital media marketing space. He has a deep love of sports. So we'll talk about this company a little bit later. I'm up in the New York area. So if you are at all into sports, you know that we are all Knicks all the time up here. So I'm sure he knows that and is well aware. but he's also on the forefront of digital storytelling for a new generation of sports fans. So I can't wait to dig in. But first of all, let me just take a pause and say, Maxelyn, welcome to the Green Book Podcast. 

Maxalan Vickers: Thank you, Karen. Thank you for having me. It it's definitely a pleasure and excited to get started.

Karen Lynch: I am too. I am too. So why don't we just take a minute and tell tell the audience a little bit more about you and kind of your your role in the insight space.

Maxalan Vickers: Of course. I'd like to think of myself as generally just a numbers person and a pr and a problem solver, and also a lover of just human behavior in general. And so I think that has come together really well in my current role as a senior insights manager at overtime. a very popular sports media startup that focuses really heavily on Gen Z and how Gen Z loves to interact with sports and really make their own voices heard within sports and creating content that, you know, Gen Z would love. And so I've had the pleasure for the past seven years of studying this audience and learning kind of what makes them tick, what gets them excited, and really understanding, hey, how can we take what was, you know, we're something on linear television and make it a part of the internet ecosystem in a way that makes them feel seen and heard.

Karen Lynch: Yeah, so I love I love it, by the way. And and you know, when I when I first heard of Overtime, I was like, I need to check this out. Not Gen Z, right? I'm I'm I am I am Gen X, for those of you who don't know. so I was like, what is Overtime? And then I went to the website and I'm like, wait, it's overtime TV. Like, what is this? I don't I didn't understand it intuitively. So for those in our audience who are not even sure of what this really even is, what is this platform that we're talking about?

Maxalan Vickers: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karen Lynch: Try to bring it to life for people.

Maxalan Vickers: Course. my favorite thing to call over time is kind of a mix of ESPN, Netflix and Nike, but for Gen Z. we started out by, you know, just posting a lot of highlights on social media. and we eventually kind of turned that into the operation of our own sports leagues in seven on seven football, basketball, women's basketball, all at the high school level. we also have an eight figure commerce business, so we sell our own merch merchandise, very, very popular. And for the Netflix side of it, you know, early on in the company's history and even still to this day, we created docuseries on YouTube around the biggest athletes around s high school sports because we realized that these are the celebrities of today in the same way that, you know, when we were younger, we looked up to the movie stars, the people we saw on TV, social media is Gen Z's TV.

So the athletes are the own are the kind of internet stars of today. And Gen Z really wants to see, hey, what does this person do, you know, when they're not playing football or basketball? And so we built a really big following off of off of you know doing those things. We have 125 million followers across all of our social media accounts. and we generate three and a half billion views per month on social media.

Karen Lynch: That's cool. You know, I'm just putting together you know, trans trans in sports. You know, I'm like even even my favorite baseball team are, you know, they're showing up, they're showing up to this. I'm sorry, I'm a Mets fan. and I and I'm apologi I'm apologizing because this isn't it this isn't the best season for the Mets, but even they're showing up with like fit checks before the game and like I'm paying attention to what they're wearing. And I'm like, look at me, like paying attention to what they're wearing as they show up to the ball field. And I'm like, that's new, that's this generation doing that to us.

Maxalan Vickers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm. Yes. Yes. Yes. It it is a world where we care about everything around the athlete as much as what the athlete does. And so that includes what the athlete is wearing, what the athlete, you know, eats on their off days, how they train, who the who their best friends are. and I think what we realized very early on is the kid the the the younger generation cares about this so much because that's the human relatability side of the athletes.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: Not everybody can be a six foot seven LeBron James, but I love that LeBron James plays golf now because I love playing golf and I see the struggles he goes through and I'm like, that was me last week. It's fun to see someone who excels so much at one thing struggle with something else that is that, you know, you also struggle with or have an interest that is the same as yours, such as, you know, sneakers or, you know, even a TV show like Love Island.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So athletes who used to be like that, that was a very kind of aspirational, I can never be like them. Suddenly they're relatable human beings on a different level and and they become much more accessible to people. Hmm. Super interesting. Way to go, Gen Z. Like bringing that to life, you know? Changing the world as they do. I love that. I love that. So so talk to me about how insights plays in then now that you have figured out the space. How that must be like a world of fun in the world of insights.

Maxalan Vickers: Mm. Yes. Yes. Yes. It is. It's a ton of fun. and I think we get the most fun in kind of one being a startup, we're very nimble. So we're able to try different things very quickly, fail quickly, or succeed quickly. I think that is was definitely shown kind of like when we start the overtime elite. in which, you know, in four months we built we built an arena in Atlanta. and now we have our own arena where we host, you know, basketball games, we've hosted boxing events, women's basketball games.

And so it's been interesting to see how this audience really wants to connect kind of with our content. But also from the inside insights point of view, when we do conduct kind of our category surveys and understand what else is the audience like outside of sports? what are their favorite things to do when traveling? Wha how are they consuming entertainment in general? what are their favorite stores to shop at? You know, who, you know, why do they have crypto wallets?

A lot of things that you would never think of for this generation because at that age we didn't have those things or those concerns, but the internet has made everything so easily accessible that, you know, they have interests that are far different than generations that came before them.

Karen Lynch: Yeah, yeah. Really cool to think about. So, you know, it's a it's a fast moving industry you're in, right? and a fast moving media company you are working for. I mean, everything about it feels like speed to me. right? It just now I'm thinking of the pace of insight. I really feel like we're moving very quickly. how how does that play out for you in the world of insights? How do you how do you trust insights in that space? How what do you look for in insights? How do you define a

Maxalan Vickers: Yes. It is Mm. Yeah.

Karen Lynch: Good insight in this space when you have to move so quickly.

Maxalan Vickers: Yeah, I think I think in general a good insight is just something that relieves uncertainty around data or around a behavior. we want to know if something is good or bad that we're seeing. Even if it's good, it still makes you a little bit uneasy if you don't know why this is good. And so, like I always like to, you know, say, like, hey, Mary bought three pieces yesterday. And that's kind of just a data point. But what insight tells you is Mary bought three pieces because Mary is a mom of three.

Karen Lynch: Hmm, yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: She's a Knicks fan and yesterday was the game one of the finals. She wanted her entire family to eat well and not have to think about what's what's for dinner. And so, like that is kind of what you know we're trying to understand on a level for you know this next generation. And everything does move so fast, you know, when you think about trends. and so that requires us to move fast as well. So we're constantly updating our data as far as you know, doing a survey such as travel.

Karen Lynch: Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: You know, we we may do that survey of our audience once every two years instead of once every three to four years in the past because things change so quickly. and I think a lot of you know major world events have happened in the re in recently, like the pandemic. you know, like you know, just a lot of just different things that have really just changed the generation's outlook on society. And they're so influenced by one another. that they're the things they love change. And so it's really about appealing to who they are today because they could be somebody else, you know, a couple of years from now.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah. By the way, I just wanna say for the record, I've I've never heard it a a good insight kind of described as something that relieves uncertainty. And I for sure will remember that. And I bet a lot of our audience listening will say, That's actually genius. Thank you so much. it is spot on. It's you know, a lot of people have said things like it answers why or it tells us why, but but it's the relief that you feel when that uncertainty is addressed that's really poignant to me. So

Maxalan Vickers: Mm-hmm. Course. Mm. Yes.

Karen Lynch: Thank you. Well done. Well said. let let's talk and I love the example also. Thank you. it's always good to have those kind of examples of of how the how an insight from your audience really, you know, really helps.

Maxalan Vickers: Okay. I I I am chalk full of analogies. That's how my brain works.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. I love it. I love it. No, keep keep coming because that also just kind of rolled off your tongue. So that's awesome. So I I really want to you know, talk about the presentation you gave at IX North America because it was it was unique. it it's why I wanted you back here. It was so well received. it was a unique perspective on on

Maxalan Vickers: Mm. Mm.

Karen Lynch: On a topic. And let me explain to those of you listening. The the talk was called Convenience, the Architecture of Ease. And you framed convenience as kind of the love child of both empathy and accessibility. And what's interesting about it is there's there's positive and negative in that space. And I think that we talk a lot about convenience as we're trying to, you know, different companies offer convenience to the consumer as if.

As if cons convenience is kind of a great end all state. And a lot of consumers talk about seeking convenience. as if it's a very pragmatic decision. And you talk about it from a very different place. And I think that's why your talk resonated with you with with with with the humans in the audience. convenience is not always talked about emotionally, and you nailed it. So so that's why you're here. really at the heart of things is you you

Maxalan Vickers: Mm-hmm. Fourth.

Karen Lynch: You made convenience feel differently to everybody that was paying attention. So thank you. Let's get into it. Tell us how you arrived at your definition of convenience.

Maxalan Vickers: Course. I have always thought of myself as a very empathic person. I believe I feel things kind of for other people. and I and I walk around life looking at human behavior as what would somebody do in this situation? always think about if I'm driving, I think about in anticipation, I see something up ahead. This car is going to move over. Let me slow down now.

Karen Lynch: Mm.

Maxalan Vickers: And so always thinking about, hey, what would this person do it and why would they do it? and so it wasn't until recently that I learned about accessibility and kind of like just like understanding kind of what you know user experience is in general and thinking about like iPhones and thinking about how braille is about accessibility, and understanding that accessibility is just somebody thinking about, hey, there may be a marginalized group that we're not thinking of. How do we make this experience the same for them as it would be for anybody else. because they have may have a limitation or or their brain may think in a totally different way. And so if we want to ensure that they have the same experience as kind of the general population, we need to tweak things just a little bit so that they can also experience this. And I think that when I was thinking about convenience, I originally wanted to say, you know, when you marry empathy and accessibility,

Karen Lynch: Hm.

Maxalan Vickers: But I wanted to come across as a product of both. So I went with Love Child. good connotation, kind of the child element of it. and I really do think that when you combine, you know, someone who is thinking about, hey, what would you experience in this situation? And then the accessibility perspective of how can I create, you know, that bridge before you get to that bridge? How can I how can I build that bridge so that, you know, when you do get to that point of potentially struggling, you get to it and you're like, hey, there's already a bridge here.

I can just cross it and you feel relief. I think that is convenience. and I think that convenience for a long time has been something that we thought of as unique to luxury. and something that was even, you know, you had to be of a certain status to w have convenience. I think the rise of technology has made convenience a need across the board for everybody. because we all use iPhones, we all have access to smart TVs. and you know, we need to start in our products making sure that it's accessible to all and convenient for all so they can feel kind of that emotional relief when they do use those products and services.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. I think one of the things that you mentioned in your talk was kind of the definition of empathy, I think you shared, was feeling the user's friction before they do. And I think what turned what turns kind of this idea on on its head for me, or what turned the idea of convenience on its head for me is convenience is often something of like saving the youth like perceived previously in my life,

Maxalan Vickers: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Karen Lynch: I I I was a qualitative researcher and there was a lot of people that it was like ease of use or convenience in shopping, for example, is curbside pickup. It's a convenience thing or grab and go. It's all about like saving people time or effort, almost like a laziness, almost like a judgment. And this one, feeling the user's friction before they do, and and the empathy of it all is like, look, you're saving that mother time because she's exhausted.

Maxalan Vickers: Mm. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Karen Lynch: Right. Because because she has the mental load is just too big, you know, because she's dealing with her child with the fever or something, you know, or because she, you know, took a long it was just as exhausting getting the kid, you know, to put their shoes on to get into the car. Like she j, you know, whatever it might be. Like it just changes this whole feeling of what shoes she was wearing, literally, and putting herself in those shoes and switching it from this other grab and go.

Maxalan Vickers: Exactly. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karen Lynch: Feeling to something other and feeling the friction before they do is such a great way of looking at it that anyway I wish you would come into my life when I was practicing, you know, practicing as a practitioner. I I really like a different a totally different mental space. So, you know, in your opinion and in your experience, what are some, you know, some kind of forms of friction you think brands are overlooking? Sort of like brands in that CPG space might be overlooking that I just pointed out.

Maxalan Vickers: Yeah. Yes, I think specifically to I think one in general brands are overlooking the w the one that I come across most frequently in life is having a bad and bubble experience. I think that we have long done a lot of the hard things online through a laptop. I still am if I buy a flight, it's gonna be on my laptop. I'm not gonna do it on my phone. But the but the next generation is they're the opposite.

Karen Lynch: Mm. Yeah, facts.

Maxalan Vickers: They're willing to do those really big things on their phone. And so, you know, for a generation like Gen Z, who is, you know, going to have their, you know, buying power increased by 26x in the next five years, it's important that we start to think of things that they use and how to optimize for them as well. And so being kind of in the Gen Z space, we've had to do a lot of things at overtime where you know we kind of optimize for them and we make sure that it's easy for them.

Because then they will come and they will stay. And so if I am thinking, you know, let's just say I'm Delta and I can't speak to Delta's mobile experience, but just to kind of use, you know, an example, if if I want them to buy a flight and I know that they're buying flights on mobile, I want to make sure that experience on mobile is as easy as it is on a computer. because who knows, they may be thinking of buying a flight while they're with their friends out.

They get really excited about a potential trip that they want to go on and they want to buy the flight right then. But if they can't and it's like, this is not really the best experience, and then they close it out, maybe they don't ever get to buying that flight because three hours later when they go get home, that feeling is kind of worn off. and it's important for Gen Z and I think even for neurodivergent consumers as well, because our brains move so fast because they interact with digital products all day long.

Karen Lynch: Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: Everything that they've touched for the last fifteen to twenty years has been if I press a button, something happens. and so if I get to something where, you know, I do three or d four different things and nothing happens, I'm not gonna want to do that thing anymore. It's gonna give me that uncertainty. It's gonna make me feel like, this isn't I'm not supposed to be doing this or it's too hard for me right now. And so I think that if we're able to kind of reduce a lot of that friction, you'll start to, you know

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: See users engage more with the products and services. My favorite thing that I learned when I was in I was at NYU and I was in the economics class in my financial engineering program was how grocers put candy at the front of stores because they want to reduce the time you have to think about buying that candy before you you buy it. Because if it's at the back of the store, you may see it

And by the time you get to the restroom, you're like, I shouldn't have this. but if it's just a spur of the moment thing, you know, you are like, you know what, I deserve that today. Grab it, scan it, go. That's kind of how you complete that process for somebody who, you know, just wanted to treat themselves that day. and I think of sometimes we think of things as either good or bad when there couldn't be good and bad in both.

Karen Lynch: Right.

Maxalan Vickers: In in in experiences. but it's about, you know, giving users the opportunity to actually make that decision without any any hiccups that could turn them away.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I wanna talk about some of the examples you shared of like great convenience success stories. Cause you shared a few. So I don't know which one you want to start with, whether it's Apple Wallet, you know, luggage forwarding in Japan or Amazon Prime even, like you go, like talk about some of these real success stories in your opinion. Cause I think the audience can learn from any number of them.

Maxalan Vickers: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Yes. I'll I'll first start with Apple Pay because I think that is the thing that everybody experiences on a daily basis, the the Apple wallet. and because there there once was a time, you know, I'm gonna date myself as well here, but like there once was a time where, you know, you had to print out concert tickets. and you had to make sure you had that printed out concert ticket the entire time you drove to the concert, you waited in line, or even when you get the t concert ticket in your email and when you get to the front of that line you have to go find it. that happened to be so often. that I love now that you can add that con that ticket to your wallet and just go to the wallet and have that scan that barcode. That takes away yeah I think that's called transactional convenience. and that takes away a lot of friction in people's minds. You can apply that to flight tickets.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: Everybody's always scared of losing their boarding pass. but another thing that it it really, really helps me on a day to day basis is being able to pay for things with your Apple wallet because I am forgetful. I have ADHD. I will leave my wallet at home and then you think, wow, I can't buy what I needed. or you know, you lose your wallet on a trip and you don't want to cancel all of those cars before you get home.

Maybe you're like, hey, I'll use my Apple Pay to make sure I get back home before I cancel everything. And so it's kind of giving you just a backup plan for, you know, when something goes wrong and really reducing kind of the friction of the the mental load that it takes for you to remember every single thing. Because the one thing you're not going to forget is your phone.

Karen Lynch: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Maxalan Vickers: And if we add the things that you're not going everything that you you potentially might forget, if we put it on your phone, the thing that you know you need at all times, it's more likely that you're willing to get to that store and buy something because you have it or just the process of buying it without fiddling through your wallet for a debit card. That's one thing that I really love. can also talk about, you know, Amazon.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: Crime and how two-day shipping has really just changed our lives so much so that we take for granted.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. I mean, same day shipping. I ordered something this mor I'm telling you, this morning, seven AM. I'm sitting having my coffee. I ordered something because it's going to be here at five, Maxelin. I was like, I can do this tonight. I mean Yeah. Can't beat it.

Maxalan Vickers: Mm-hmm. Yes. It it it's it's so amazing. and that is just that's that's such a like Amazon is just so great logistically that they've completely rewired our brains to to believe that we can have something in the time we need it. yes. Mm-hmm.

Karen Lynch: I want to feel bad about it, by the way. I do want to feel bad about it because I am, you know, I'm pro, you know, mom and pop shop. I'm pro, you know, boutique bookstores. I really, I really do, you know, want to feel bad about it for a million reasons. End yet.

Maxalan Vickers: Yes. Mm-hmm. This. And so I think the best way to think about that is, and the the part I love kind of about the convenience thing is that like when I think of Amazon Prime as best for necessities, if I know I'll need something in two days, or if I know I need something tomorrow and I'm on my couch at midnight, those things may not be open. I can order it and and know that it'll be here in in two days. Or when I'm holiday shopping and it's December 22nd.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: I can rely on getting those gifts and they'll be there by December tw by by Christmas Eve so that you can put them under the tree on Christmas. and what that does is I think it frees up the mental space that you have for other things like shopping at the mom and pop shops, which you know that takes some effort because you have to get dressed, you have to drive around, you have to, you know, have the energy to actually walk through those shops and casually browse. And so

Karen Lynch: I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's true. Yeah, yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: Kind of back to the topic of like when we talked about you know what convenience affords. Convenience affords you that extra mental space to go do the things you actually enjoy. and so I think that is also a great segue to the last one we'll talk about the luggage forwarding in Japan. I went to Japan last year, the greatest experience because I realized that this country is like the

Karen Lynch: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: King of convenience. like they it's like a video game developer did, you know, is working for the government and it's like, hey, we need to think about every single step of this process so that when people come here, they remember it and you know, they are having the greatest time and they're not stressed. And so a lot of Japanese culture is like, how can we move at ease in every part of our life? and it's part of the reason why the Japanese live the longest.

Karen Lynch: Hmm.

Maxalan Vickers: It's because, you know, they have passions that they can enjoy because the stressful things are, you know, have been taken care of or have been approached with a an air of ease around them. And so when me and my wife visited Japan last year, we realized that hey, Japan has this service called Yamato where you know you can ship your luggage from the airport to the hotel or you can ship your luggage from a hotel to another hotel.

Karen Lynch: Mm.

Maxalan Vickers: And we were staying in three different places around Tokyo so that we could have, you know, just different experiences. We stayed in Kirakama, which is like a beach town. we stayed at Mount Fuji, and then we stayed in the heart of Tokyo. And so when we were going from place to place, you know, there's always that thought of like, what do you do in the meantime when which you know you have to check out 11 a.m. You can't check in till 3 p.m. These places are only an hour apart.

What do you do with your luggage in that time frame? and Japan was like, hey, you know, the day before, if you just come to the front desk, tell us where you're going next, we will ship your luggage for $30. And we were like, wow, like this is unbelievable. Only $30 for the bag. And so we did it. We're like, this is so you know too good to be true. We get to the next hotel, we can't check in until 3 p.m. But our bag is already there. It beats

Karen Lynch: Hmm. That's nice. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: The bag beats you there. And so in that time frame between when we were going through hotels, we were able to go out into Tokyo, go shopping, have nice lunches. we were able to buy more things and enjoy more things because we didn't have to carry a big suitcase on the train. and you know, just being able to have that, which Japan also has these five dollar lockers.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing.

Maxalan Vickers: Within their sub base subway stations where you can just put a book bag in for three or four hours and for five dollars come back and get it later. so we were very much hands-free in Japan. And that is a level of convenience that you know is like physical convenience because the more you have to lug that luggage around, the more tired you get, the less you want to do the next thing that you could have enjoyed. now that you're not tired, you know exactly where that bag is.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: You're like, hey, I can actually go out and enjoy myself, have a great meal, go do some shopping, just go, you know, really just enjoy whatever Japan has to offer. and it it just starts out, you know, that that's kind of when I really start to think about convenience as an emotional thing, rather than a luxury.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. I love this so much and and now, you know, the the the strategic side of my brain is kicking in saying, Okay, this is all great, theoretically great. How do you apply it to, you know, a a company like yours, which is kind of a digital media experience? How does how does this all translate to what you do? and and i i in that kind of fan experience?

Maxalan Vickers: Mm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think it really starts out by understanding what audience you want to go after and what what is what are the what's that audience's pain points right now and how can you solve for that? I think very early on in over time we understood that our audience's pain points were hey, they didn't want to watch entire games of sports on TV. They really just wanted to see the highlights. And so we came in and we were like, Hey, we're just gonna give you the highlights.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. No.

Maxalan Vickers: But we're also going to give you the highlights very fast. at a speed in which you know they loved because they felt like, hey, this is the I'm getting this almost immediately. I can be the first one to send this to my friends, and then we can all enjoy together. but I think that more importantly, what we did in the early days was everybody at overtime who was kind of like in the first 100, 150 or so just to start the company added overtime in their Instagram name. So like

Karen Lynch: Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: Even today you can look on Instagram. I'm overtime.max. and we would comment on every post that we would put on Instagram. And so, when we would post something on Instagram, the kids who follow us not only see that, hey, this is something that's really cool from a brand that I love, but also everybody who works for the brand is also as excited as I am about this in the comments. And I can respond to them. They will talk back to me.

Karen Lynch: That's cool.

Maxalan Vickers: It feels like they are talking to their friends in a group chat. it feels like, you know, we're in the living room with them, as excited as they are about a dunk that they just saw. and it really established us as a brand that is a human and not a brand. Because a lot of times, a lot of times brands give you something and then they just go. whereas we were a brand that's like, hey, we're gonna give you this, but we're gonna enjoy it with you.

Karen Lynch: That's cool. That's That's very cool.

Maxalan Vickers: We're gonna talk with you. we're gonna respond to every DM that, you know, is sent to them to to the overtime account. we're going to make you feel seen and going to make you feel heard. and I I always relate back to this, like me growing up, I love the SPN and I would give anything to talk to Stuart Scott about a highlight. because I can only see him. And so you when you only see somebody, you don't really feel like it's accessible.

And I think that is the accessibility part that you know we were kind of breaking down was that we were providing the bridge for them to have that in two way engagement that they see in everything else that they do. because they've grown up with like I said, two way engagement. They ask for something, something happens. They press a button, something happens. If they respond to us, something happens.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. I have children. One of them's twenty-six. also a Mets fan. It's a family curse. and sometimes the games are late at night and he wakes up, you know, we we talk and I you know, I s I'm like, Did you stay for the game? He has a baby, he can't stay for the game. And he's like, No, but I I checked out the highlights first thing and I'm like, You you what? He's like, I yeah, I wake up and I check out the highlights.

Maxalan Vickers: Yeah. Mm.

Karen Lynch: So it's an interesting behavior that I don't do that, of course, but that is a behavior of his. He's like, Yeah, I'm gonna he's gonna log into MLB and check the highlights out first thing in the morning. Duh. Like I should know that. So it's interesting that's called that particular behavior that his generation might enjoy doing. So it's very interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. And it saves you time. You don't have to allocate two and a half hours of your day to something that, you know, you can get the best parts of it within 10 minutes. And I think that that is how society is is is kind of coming down for Gen Z itself. Is there a lot of things that take a long time, but how can I get this in the shortest amount of time so that I can do other things?

Karen Lynch: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which is I'm doing other things for the two and a half to three hours late at night that the game is playing. So very interesting generational right there. Thank you. so so let's talk about the flip side because I I do want to get here because this was also again, eye opening for me, kind of the dark side of convenience. When convenience becomes harp harmful. talk to me about that or talk to the entire audience about that. What have what have you noted?

Maxalan Vickers: Yeah. Yes. Yes, I think there is a, you know, while convenience is a great thing, I think there too much of something can always turn into the opposite of what you intended it to be. and I think that while convenience is a great thing, there's a such thing as too much convenience or too convenient. And I think we love convenience because it relieves us of friction. But if there's no friction at all, then that is a slippery slope.

Karen Lynch: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: No pun intended. but I think of things, you know, that you know, I think of things like sports betting. I think of things like AI. and how like, you know, in AI, you know, it's great when you're looking for help to brainstorm an idea. but if you're using AI to learn for you in a class, that's too convenient. You know, in the long run, you're gonna you're you're you're gonna suffer because you're not actually learning.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: So I think it's important that we approach convenience as something that is a like you said something that is a bridge, but if I see a bridge, I'm gonna expect water to be below it. I'm gonna expect the bridge to be over something. If I see if I'm driving on a road and I see a random bridge and there's nothing, I'm gonna be like, something something's off here. Why why why is there just a random bridge on this road and there's nothing under it? And so

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: I think about with sports betting, you know, like sports betting is one of those things where, you know, originally you had to bet you had to go to a casino. so there's all all already a little bit of effort that you have to do into this. and one of my favorite podcasters, Bo Monty Jones, he talked about how sports betting is now a casino in your pocket. and within three clicks you can place a bet. And.

Karen Lynch: Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: At at times that can be something that is too convenient, especially when you combine it with Apple Pay, because you don't really have that other side to show, hey, your account is dropping, your account is dropping, all you see is now you have fifty more dollars in your account. And so I think it's you know very important for you know for us in general to have some sort of guardrails for convenience when we do make something that is super convenient. 

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: I think with social media and the infinite scroll, which I love the TikTok algorithm, it's so amazing. but but when it goes from like just video to video, video, video to video, and there's nothing in between, you can get lost in there. even Netflix makes you wait five seconds between episodes to give you time to think, are you supposed to be doing something else? Yes. And I fall for it every time.

Karen Lynch: Yeah, it really is. Yeah. Mm. Do I really Yeah. Do I really want to watch another hour? Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: But when there's no time in between, you get lost and you forget about other things. And so I love that, you know, social media sites have installed guardrails such as like they they're they remind you of how long you've been on the app. Or they say you can s you can set kind of a maximum amount of time that you spend on here per day. sports betting, they let you know how long you've been on the app. they always mention the betting hotline number in every single ad.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: And so I think, you know, while we are creating a lot of convenience, it's important to remind remind the audience or remind our consumer base, hey, there, you know, if you feel like this is getting to be too much, here's some other ways that you can kind of scale that back.

Karen Lynch: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, great points, great points. and I and I see that across categories too when you really think about it. you know, even in in in CPG, you know, if there's convenience foods, right, that can be problematic if you if you go too far. you know, so so I can totally see how it how it applies to different categories. And I share your concerns about sports betting. could be perfectly fine for some

Maxalan Vickers: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karen Lynch: But but give it to somebody with addictive personality traits. it could be problematic. Somebody too young could be problematic. And bring up the Apple wallet. Now I'm suddenly freaking out about something totally different. So really interesting. talk to me about the cognitive tax, because that was another point in your presentation. I mean, there was so much meat in this presentation and I don't want to run out of time before we go there. So yeah, let's talk about it. The cognitive tax.

Maxalan Vickers: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Yes. Yes, I think the cognitive tax is something that just you you recognize that everybody has a finite mental and emotional capacity. some people have way more, some people have less. I think that with neurodivergent consumers and and and also Gen Z, there's less because of how much we're exposed to on a daily basis and how fast our brain moves. and so

Taking into account that there that something is finite, you want to make sure that it doesn't run out. and I think that it's easy for that tax, it's easy for something with too many steps to take a toll on that tax. And the thing that immediately comes to mind is when I'm filling out a job application and you upload your resume and you still have to type in your work history. And that is something that like, you know.

Karen Lynch: Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: Of course you want to apply to that apply to that job, but for somebody who is applying to jobs, there is there's already a lower, you know, capacity because of how much they have to think about on a daily basis. What am I going to do about bills this month? you know, what am I gonna do? You know, my kids tuition is coming up. And so we like to believe that, you know, that would create a desperation to where they would continue with that application. But in reality, you know.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: They may postpone that till tomorrow. and then when you postpone things, you may not revisit them just because it's too much for you in that moment. And so that's why I think it's really important for going forward, you know, in this digital age of, you know, everything ha everybody having a website and app and a mobile ex like a mobile experience, to make things as easy as they can be so that you can retain the people who don't have.

As much of a you know mental and emotional capacity as other people. And I think that when we think about, you know, neuro neurodivergent, you know, people making up 20% of the population, and Gen Z, you know, being the biggest demographic, age demographic on earth right now, we want to make sure that our products and services appeal to them so that, you know, a competitor doesn't do this before us.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah.

Maxalan Vickers: And end up winning that consumer base before you do.

Karen Lynch: So let me ask you this because, you know, we've we've we've you've brought up kind of neurodivergency and ADHD and the percentage of the population of, you know, that and that are that are you know, kind of either identifying this way or diagnosed even. How do brands go about kind of researching this and understanding this in the context of their own brands without without making people feel that they're being studied or reduced to a label in this context? Because I think that's important.

Maxalan Vickers: Yeah. Yeah.

Karen Lynch: What are your thoughts on that? Is it is it l is it just trusting that statistically it'll fall out in the population or is it being deliberate and mindful about it? What do you think?

Maxalan Vickers: Yeah. I think it's being deliberate and mindful. And I wish I had a much better answer. So this is really me speculating. but I do think that when you know you are making a product or service, it's important to ask the people involved, hey, what do you think about this? And of course that's going to come with learning more about that population as well. And so maybe it's seeking out a third party who already specializes in.

Gen Z or specialize in neurodivergent consumers to ensure that, hey, does this ex does this experience meet their needs? or you know, if if you do want to kind of ask, hey, do you fall into this category? You could do it in a way that makes them feel valued or celebrated. Hey, you know, this is not this we aren't asking you because we believe, you know, you know, there's something wrong with you. We're asking you because, you know, you, you know, you are a a use case that we really need to account for going forward because we recognize that you know it's very it's it would be very valuable to us that you know you use our product and that you know we want users like you. And so I think making them feel included, making them feel like, hey, you know, I I'm not a burden to anyone or you know, my

Karen Lynch: Mm.

Maxalan Vickers: Needs aren't too much. I think that's very important when dealing with people who might have that kind of lower lower, you know, emotional and mental capacity, or just a higher, you know, cognitive tax on whatever they have to do on a daily basis.

Karen Lynch: Yeah. No. Yeah. Excellent. Thank you. I really want to be mindful of time. and so there's a whole lot that I'm skipping that I had hoped to talk to you about, but but I do wanna I do wanna wrap with with this one question for you because I think it's important. and and again, if you missed this presentation at N IX North America, I'm so sorry, but you did a great job. Excellent, thank you. On your final slide, you had said, you know, don't ask people what they want, ask what would make their day to day lives easier.

Maxalan Vickers: Mm-hmm.

Karen Lynch: And so I'm gonna repeat that for the insights professionals listening. Don't ask people what they want, ask what would make their day to day lives easier. So Maxelyn, if more insights teams started to ask that question, what do you imagine would change?

Maxalan Vickers: I think that we this goes back to the say do gap that a lot of different companies at IEX spoke about, and that I think is amazing. We overestimate how much we know about our own wants. but it's very easy for us to speak about what makes our lives easier because it puts us in a place where we have to think about first what is making it hard. And I think it's very easy to think about what's making something hard for you.

And then saying, hey, this will be easier, rather than coming from a place of, you know, I just, you know, what do I want? Everybody wants to win the lottery. but really, you know, what we want is to be able to live comfortably with a you know salary that allows us to, you know, enjoy our hobbies, you know, put food on the table and you know, take some time off of work every once in a while. And I think that when you do frame things from a perspective of what what would make your life easier. It gives the feeling of being seen.

Somebody is actually wants to know what is stressing me out on a daily basis. And I have been wanting to tell people that this thing has been making me stressful, especially if they're looking to relieve that stress. because if it's stressing me, then there is probably a product out there that I'm looking for that would relieve that stress or at least hoping would come available. And so I think that by reframing things in that way, I think we do open we open up a different part of the mind that that is more equipped to answer questions like that rather than a superficial question like, you know, what do you want?

Karen Lynch: Yeah. Yeah. Really great answer. Thank you so much for your time today, for your original presentation and for your recap today. I feel like I could talk to you all day and and yet I promise you we'd wrap by the No. I promise you I'd wrap by the bottom of the hour and I have like one minute left. Any any final words you want to share with the audience? You get the last word.

Maxalan Vickers: Of horse. Same as well. I just really want to say thank you. I to to you, to you know, Mariana, to everyone who to Marian, to everyone who really had me at IEX and gave me the platforms to kind of speak about these things. A lot of this is are things that I think about on a daily basis. and I think that I have a unique perspective being somebody who is neurodivergent, and has studied Gen Z for the last seven years. and so

Happy to kind of bring this to the forefront so that other people can start to look at the world a bit differently and even kind of approach their own team own teams in ways that's like, hey, maybe if we tweak something just a little bit, you know, we can make this product immensely better for an entire group of people out there who feels marginalized.

Karen Lynch: Love that. Thank you so much. And you are quite welcome. I hope to see you again at future events because it's just a pleasure to have you and be around you and learn from you.

Maxalan Vickers: Course. I can't wait to come back next year. Thank you so much for this.

Karen Lynch: My pleasure. My pleasure. And to our audience, thank you for listening. For Emma for producing. We so appreciate you. And to Big Bad Audio, thank you for cleaning us up. Yes, thank you. All right, we'll see you next time on the Green Book Podcast. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye.

Maxalan Vickers: Thank you very much.