From Behavioral Data to AI Commerce: Why the Consumer Journey Is Breaking (and Being Rebuilt)

Transcript 

Leonard Murphy: Hello everybody. It's Lenny Murphy with another edition of the CEO series. Thank you for taking time out of your day to spend with myself and my guest. Now today a little bit different. We call this the CEO series, but occasionally um it's not always the CEO. Um instead we bring in folks that uh are just doing really cool stuff even though their title may be slightly different. Um, and uh, with that I am happy to welcome Margie Strickland and Sean Miller from Luth and Well, actually I say I say Luth because that's how I always think about it. Um, but you guys should give your bios and No, it's actually ZQ because I know that there were some some changes there on how things shifted. So anyway, Margie and Sean, welcome. Margie, uh, correct me with the company affiliation and your title and give us a quick bio.

Margie Strickland: Thank you. Yes, Margie Strickland. Uh, happy to be here. Um, it's from I'm from Luth Research. I am vice president of client solutions at Luth Research. I have been in the market research industry space for almost 30 years.

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Margie Strickland: Uh spanning both the the larger big um u

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Margie Strickland: Companies out there as well as the smaller startups. And I've definitely been in the behavioral metering space for close to

Leonard Murphy: Wow.

Margie Strickland: 20 years back when even when there was cookie tracking and and things along those lines. Uh best definitely spanned the various different um verticals in behavioral space.

Leonard Murphy: What?

Margie Strickland: Um as well as digital um and and social intelligence. So I was definitely involved in lots of areas of social, search, behavioral and uh consumer intelligence. So definitely span that. Uh and I here at Luth I work specifically on client solutions and strategy for having clients understand exactly what what can be accomplished with behavioral data and how how that has evolved over time and uh what areas that we can bridge the traditional market research uh methodologies with u behavioral data
 
Leonard Murphy: Okay,

Margie Strickland: And digital as we continue to evolve with emerging technologies as we go forward. So

Leonard Murphy: very cool. The uh this is my 26th year, so you have me beat. Um uh so Sean,

Margie Strickland: Happy.

Leonard Murphy: Uh how about

Sean Miller: Yeah. Thanks.

Leonard Murphy: You?

Sean Miller: Um Sean Miller, uh senior executive vice president here at Luth Research. Uh been at Luth for over 16 years. Uh before that I was in the software industry for about seven years. Um and yeah, so I've overseen here at Luth uh both the traditional survey teams uh traditional research as well as digital research. So ranging everything from building the panel and the original recruitments back in the early 2010s uh to you know leading the analytical engineering and research teams now. So it's uh it's great to be on your show.

Leonard Murphy: It's great to have you. So, so I guess to clarify for the audience for like Lenny, why did you seem confused? Um the and and you guys correct me if I'm wrong, the I I I know Rosanne and what a legend, what an amazing woman she is. Um and uh early pioneer in developing uh both behavioral and and online to begin with. So, so when I think of Luth um I know Luth is a full service, you know, company. you you built the panel then also built the uh the ZQ product line which is the behavioral uh uh the behavioral passive measurement component. Um, and so I'm always I just want to be careful that we separate. I know you treat that as a distinct this is a distinct product line.

Sean Miller: Yes.

Leonard Murphy: Um, but it sits within and affiliated with the broader uh Luth research.

Sean Miller: Yeah. And we do actually do we do have two companies.

Leonard Murphy: Uh.

Sean Miller: We have separated it where we do have our traditional business which is known as Luth research and then there is the Luth ZQ intelligence which wraps all of our behavioral offerings under it.

Leonard Murphy: Okay.

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Good. All right. So there audience see I was not just being weird there really there there was a nuance that was there.
 
Sean Miller: Yeah. No, no, no. There is there is actually two. Yes, there there's a lot of overlap though between the the

Leonard Murphy: So okay.

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yes.

Sean Miller: Staff

Leonard Murphy: Yes.

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Uh and and I want to echo the uh what a legend Roseanne is in visionary in putting all this together before anybody else did. I mean RG if you've been in this that that space for 20 years. Um a lot of companies have come and gone.

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Uh not many have been sustainable, but boy here you guys still are. Um and and I would say my first experience with uh with Luther particularly from ZQ standpoint was that and Margie tell me if this is reflective of your experience all this data has been available for a long time. Nobody knew what the hell to do with it or how to work with it. Those were big barriers, you know. Um, and what I find is Z C ZQ specifically Luth has done is they addressed that issue. They made it very easy to use, very actionable um, aligned to client business issues that we would typically see within the research space rather than just being this big mess of data uh, that's out there. So, I've always found that incredibly impressive. Um, that the focus was on on usability and use case versus just the data. Um, does that kind of match your experience, Margie, in looking at this that it was almost a a solution looking for a problem where ZQ actually aligned to problem so it was a solution out of the

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Gate?

Margie Strickland: No, absolutely. I mean, the the um when the industry first had a taste of what behavioral data was or is, you know, that was uh also in the early stages of what the internet could actually capture and all of the things that it possibly

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Margie Strickland: Could capture and also mobile devices had just started coming out in terms of things like smartphones. So all of this stuff was coming to a head and I I think that as everything started emerging and started evolving and all this data was coming out uh for clients to gravitate towards they weren't really sure well this sounds great sounds awesome that all this data is coming out but what
 
Leonard Murphy: Right.

Margie Strickland: Do we do with it? How does it work? How is it actionable? And I think that it took it took a lot for clients to try to understand even how to utilize it. They were still invested in traditional metrics. They had just come over the hump of moving from telephone surveys to online surveys. They were just getting their feet wet with with trying to actually move online that actually now transitioning to wait. We're not going to have stated surveys anymore. You're telling me that I can catch where where are we going with this?

Leonard Murphy: We We don't need to ask a question.

Margie Strickland: It's like, okay, wait a minute. Can we slow down just a little bit? Like slow down a little bit.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Margie Strickland: So I think that a lot of the companies that started capitalizing on it in the early stages found that there just weren't clients ready for that kind of appetite. they just they weren't ready or maybe we were battling against larger companies that were already in this space with um con already capturing passive data whether it was with dongles or hardware installed in people's houses or something like that or TV viewership like there were definitely areas where they felt like yeah maybe we're already getting this or or maybe we're not just not ready for this so I think that that definitely is what hindered

Leonard Murphy: Sure.

Margie Strickland: The behavior behal data space early on because we it happened at a time where there was a lot of change going on and it just it was hard for brands to capitalize on what areas to focus on first and and and and move the needle. That's that's my

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. Sean,

Margie Strickland: Interpretation.

Leonard Murphy: Any nuance you would add to that from your experience?

Sean Miller: Yeah. Um, you mentioned, you know, saying the industry is let's slow down a little bit. I will just say for those of you who know Rosanne, she is not one to slow down.

Leonard Murphy: No.

Sean Miller: She was one of the first people have a call center,

Leonard Murphy: She is not.

Sean Miller: Build survey savvy in 1999 and immediately within 10 years later in 2009 had this idea for ZQ and by the end of 2010, we were building the first panels for it. So, um, yes, it was a little early. Um, and we'll talk about this, I'm sure, more in a little bit, but where we are now today really positions us to be able to take advantage of this digital data more than ever in the past. And so it's it's exciting times.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. So the shift that has happened,

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Here's my hypothesis. Um and you tell me uh whether you agree or not. The one of the challenges was not just kind of the the way research was structured originally, right? We ask questions in a very specific way and this is what we do. Um but there's a technical component of uh how do we deal with this data overall and I think the the big unlock uh that is now increasing the demand and appetite for this is AI like it it has decreased the barrier to entry. It is now the same thing we see with with qual right with unstructured data. Um the the barriers to make sense of information, synthesize it with other data types and align that to answer a business question. Even three years ago that was still a pretty big heavy lift. Um today it is not. Um so the thirst for data I think has been unlocked

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Because of the technology making it easier to do and that aligned to or I think is this shift that we are seeing as an overall industry that we are no longer in you we still I I call our industry insights and analytics um uh because I think it's more representative of what we do today and that means that our scope of data sourc forces has now expanded outside of just answering or just listening but also watching passive etc etc and we are in the business now of of synthesizing data to uh drive human information and it doesn't have to if that type of information sits in lots of different type of styles and structures but ultimately the demand now is for high quality the human information that answers questions and drives business results. That's my hypothesis. You guys are living on the front line, right? You're you're doing that every day. So, does that resonate? It's like, yeah, that we started seeing that shift and and that's kind of what's happening. Or no, Lenny, you totally missed the boat. You're making us up. You're hallucinating like an LLM. Um uh so what's your take? Sean, we'll start with you this time as far as you we go back and forth a little bit.

Sean Miller: Yeah. So, I'll say that, you know, one of the biggest barriers for digital data over the past 16 years I've seen is costs too much. It takes too long. It makes me think too hard. Right? I'm used to my traditional surveys. This is something else. Right? And that's one of the things that we've continued to see AI help break down the barriers. um allow us to be able to deliver more for the clients and continually go back to the so what right so that's a classic thing you hear at conferences and people talk about but I've always kind of felt that is it's one thing to have a bunch of data and say oh we have a lot of data here it is it's another thing to say um what are the insights out of the data but it's a whole other side to say so what what does that mean what

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Sean Miller: Does that mean for my marketing team where should they put their marketing dollars what about product placement what about the consumer journeys

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Sean Miller: What am missing about what they're doing online and all of those sort of things. Um, I actually see AI as an interesting lever um to be able to allow researchers to focus more on the research and the so what um than they ever have been in the past.

Leonard Murphy: Yep. Yep.

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: I agree. Margie, how about

Margie Strickland: So that is one side of the coin.

Leonard Murphy: You?

Margie Strickland: I think I think the other side of the coin is how AI is disrupting the actual consumer journey that our that our

Leonard Murphy: Yes.

Margie Strickland: Brands are most struggling with. So the consumer journey has now we've been down this road before right with search in the

Leonard Murphy: Sure.

Margie Strickland: Early 2000s. So I I don't think that I think with AI now becoming not a replacement for search but as a uh as a complement to search or as one that's working alongside search, what we're seeing is that there's definitely this notion where brands are able to measure traditional metrics that they've been measuring for a while, but they're missing the AI layer. And so that that we've been labeling the conversion gap has become something of a where do we go? How do we do that? So AI is now even adding an layer on the consumer journey side where brands are hungry now for that information and that is not necessarily information you can really get from standard traditional stated surveys. You know, you have you have errors in recall. You have errors in just just human errors in trying to figure out how to structure an actual survey question to answer what you're trying to get at in how a person uses AI in their path to purchase journey or in some sort of subscription journey or looking for a home loan. I mean, there are so many different things to think about where AI now comes into play that brands are missing out in an opportunity or a layer of where they may be recommended. So, I do see that we're at a um we're at a uh a shift here that encompasses not just the market research companies in general to try and figure out how to

Leonard Murphy: It moved.

Margie Strickland: Utilize AI to become uh more efficient in answering the questions that they're looking that brands are looking for. But also brands are looking now for other avenues for how can we measure AI for our own needs and our own understandings of our dollars spent in marketing um for uh search engine optimization.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah,

Margie Strickland: So that's

Leonard Murphy: That is a really interesting point um that I hadn't thought of it in exactly uh that way until now of the from a a passive measurement let's call it you know behavioral data component because of this AI disintermediation in the buying process the the discovery process and the buying process. Um there's now it's inserted itself in the middle, right? And it's changing results. It's changing read a ton over the past couple weeks on the differences of different uh LLMs based upon their data source they're pulling from and how it represents a brand. You know, which brands are represented, yada yada yada. There's this new confusion factor, right? that's uh that's there while also moving towards a world where the path to purchase doesn't end in the human. The path to purchase is ending in an agent. Um uh and that's likely going to increase at least in some categories. And what are we going to do? you're going to ask the agent, you know, the uh which I guess you could I'm sure that there's some point going to be a aentic survey that you're asking the agent, why did you choose that brand? Uh although um it would be interesting.

Margie Strickland: That would be

Leonard Murphy: Uh talk about hallucinations.

Margie Strickland: Interesting.

Leonard Murphy: Jesus. Anyway, the um uh so the path to truth to understand that evolution is not necessarily in asking the question. You can only really get there through passive measurement of people's actual, you know, online behavior. Um and I I I hadn't made that that specific connection until right this minute. So, thank you uh for doing that. Is that what you're hearing now as brands are coming more towards you or is that is that really the issue of like hell we don't know why we don't have a clue on how people are getting to us somehow they're going into open AI and you know or whatever.

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Um and is that's what's keeping people up. They're saying wait can you help us? Can we use this data to really understand and fill in this gap of information?

Margie Strickland: Yeah, we are hearing that and and and we're hearing it more and more as people start even thinking about it more

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Margie Strickland: And more or as people start using AI themselves. when they start using it and they start seeing recommendations from other brands or they start seeing recommend you know just just how it changes their thought process it then extends itself to oh wow if I work for this brand how is that also changing the extension and I think that you know one of the things you know you mentioned agenic commerce and that's that's really big right now because while AI is acting as though your shopping assistant it's going to become your

Leonard Murphy: Mhm.

Margie Strickland: Actual shopper tomorrow,

Leonard Murphy: 100%.

Margie Strickland: Right? And that's that's where brands are going to are they going to lose loyalty because if an AI starts shopping
 
Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Margie Strickland: For you, there's the notion of brand loyalty that is that going to go out the window like are people no longer going to

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Margie Strickland: Want to like if the cheapest flight is with a carrier that I don't have a membership with or I don't have points with, am I going to start losing that connection with my personal, you know, with a particular carrier that I that I fly with? So I think that that that lends itself to trying to capitalize on what's going on in AI in terms of what a consumer is seeing. I mean there's this there's this uh nomenclature that has come up where it was

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Margie Strickland: Um we've always had SEO which was search engine optimization. Now there's GEO which is generative engine optimization as opposed

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Margie Strickland: To geo which is location right geography. So which is most traditional survey researchers think of when they see GEO.

Leonard Murphy: Right.

Margie Strickland: So that layer though is very nuanced and it's very hard to understand and

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Margie Strickland: Measure. And there while there are search intelligence companies out there that are trying to give you that layer that social intelligence companies have been delivering for a while. It's at an aggregate scale. We don't know what happened before AI or even after AI. what actually led to the conversion and the you know the actual buying point on the end or what got them there to begin with. So there's definitely a lot of layers where brands are understanding and are able to measure up to a certain point and then they can measure what the conversions were but they don't know if AI contributed or not.

Leonard Murphy: Right.

Margie Strickland: And this is where I think that um definitely behavioral data is is going to become a huge player and not something that is going to be um

Leonard Murphy: Yeah,

Margie Strickland: Uh discovered with other forms of data without having like a real insight into what consumers are doing.

Leonard Murphy: 100%. And you know the uh I am aware of multiple large retailers as well as technology companies um platforms that are investing very heavily in understanding what happens outside their ecosystem. So right they they may have if you think about their their user base or loyalty program as a panel and most of them utilize them that way right they they and they can match all right you know you're I'm a Kroger shopper right uh so the the the the Kroger plus points for fuel that's that's important to us they can see our we always my wife always reminds me to make sure to put in our our our number right so they're capturing my my uh all of my purchasing they understand a whole lot about me. Um, but they don't have any clue on what happens on when I shop on Amazon or at Target or, you know, whatever the case may be. So, my point is the uh there was a big project that's been floating out for the last few months by a major social media platform that we're we're all aware of. We won't necessarily uh what that was, but it was like a really they're going to spend that much um to build this uh build this capability to understand more holistically 360 degrees outside of their own silos of information. As good as that is, right, that social media platform when I first heard about that, what do you not know? Oh my god. Well, stop and think. Well, there's actually a lot they don't know. Um, and to get to that point, sorry, my very long way away. Um, the of of both training their own internal data sets. I'm sure they're building some level of synthetic personas or or maybe even digital twins off that as well, but also trying to fine-tune because their their bottom line revenue source is advertising. um is to understand that path to purchase so they can generate more actual uh advertising so they don't see a decrease in their core revenue and when you're marketing what what does advertising mean when it's to an agent right what does marketing or branding mean when it's to an agent not to a human so the need to understand that data sorry I'm soap boxing my apologies the uh is I agree with you it's only growing in importance um as things progress. But now here comes the real challenge is is if that is true and I think it is is the issue of scalability um of the so so ZQ is a pan right you have people that you pay every month um to install this SDK and uh capture that information so from that respect it functions as a panel it's not inexpensive to uh to do that um so it's hard to hit scale of massive scale, right? Like, you know, millions and millions of people because it's not because it's it's expensive. Um, do you see a path where the the demand is now outstripping there's enough demand to allow for an expansion of supply for behavioral data?

Sean Miller: So I can take that one.

Leonard Murphy: I think Go ahead.

Sean Miller: Yeah. Um yeah. So I think the answer to that is yes. Right. Um you know right now and you guys touched on this about um you know and Marty you touched on this a little bit earlier about the role of AI is not actually replacement search. It's a complement of search. And what we saw is because again we went into that thinking all right how is it disrupting search and that was actually the wrong question to ask

Leonard Murphy: Okay.

Sean Miller: Really is when we took a step back and we looked at it we saw a lot of people have kind of personal relationships with their AI and so what it's almost replacing is the recommendations. So I've done a lot of traditional um traditional research and one of the bigger elements that helps people make decisions is the recommendations of friends and family and those sort of things.

Leonard Murphy: Nope.

Sean Miller: And so if AI really is an inspiration layer, it's almost and there people having relationships with it. It's almost replacing that friends and family layer except it can be done through advertising. It's done programmatically. So it opens an avenue to brands to be able to market through or do GEO in a way which gives you the same benefit of that like friends and family referral, right? That inspiration. And I see that's such an opportunity for brands to capitalize on. And Margie, you mentioned about brand loyalty could go away, but at the same time, it's going away,

Leonard Murphy: Sure.

Sean Miller: But it's being replaced by a brand loyalty somewhere else because AI recommended something else and you trust that AI in that way. So that's created a lot of um client interest that feeds

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Sean Miller: This um especially when you think about um you know, it's so different per category. We have clients come to us and say, "Should I care about AI?

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Sean Miller: And is anyone else any my competitors caring about AI within my category?" And that's such an important question I feel like they need to be asking because the answer is very different depending on what category and it's very different even 3 months from ago from where it is today from where it will be three months from now.

Margie Strickland: Mhm.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. So,

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Are we seeing the emergence of a new from that standpoint um uh of really a new

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Influencer category? So, the uh uh I hadn't thought about that way before, but as you describe it,

Sean Miller: What?

Leonard Murphy: Then that yeah, that becomes a lens to look at here. Um, which is also again I would argue why behavioral data is needed because the influencer set aside the AI right the traditional influencer category is hard to get a handle on too. So uh the but you guys capture all you see Lenny watched this podcast right uh within this podcast somebody said try Margie's pizza. Oh Margie's pizza looks good.

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Oh I got a discount code my discount code. I'm going to order Margie's Pizza.

Margie Strickland: Mhm.

Leonard Murphy: Um the which is hard to capture in other other ways, right? Especially for the emergency challenger brands that are uh relying on the influencer category.

Margie Strickland: Mhm.

Leonard Murphy: They can't they can't afford a Super Bowl spend, right? Super ad spend. So, um but you guys are a solution to that, right? Behavioral data is a solution to connect those dots uh around a rapidly changing uh channel makeup

Margie Strickland: Absolutely.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Sean Miller: Um,

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Sean Miller: And I'd add to that one other thing is that when consumer behaviors change so

Leonard Murphy: Okay.

Sean Miller: Quickly like they are right now, um, they're changing before the consumer even knows they're changing. So, their ability to articulate that in the survey is even so much diminished. So we talked about the SED do gap at some point and say do gap's a big thing right and I'd argue the say
 
Leonard Murphy: Nice.

Sean Miller: Do gap is more important now than ever because the consumers don't even realize that their behaviors are changing because it's so new and it's so fast changing and that's where behavioral data comes in.

Leonard Murphy: It is.

Margie Strickland: Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: And and the generational changes, right? So So this is interesting.

Sean Miller: Yes.

Leonard Murphy: I was I I thought maybe my kids were just weird.

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Um uh but I've spoken to a couple other parents and we have teenage kids uh and there is a backlash I I'm hearing this consistently that for uh I guess their Gen Z right the that many of them don't like AI they won't engage with AI um and as they emerge right these are my my kids are teenagers they get a you know they get an allowance they're trying to get jobs right they they spenders. Um, and so we make these assumptions today about Gen X, you know, it's like we're all I'm like, "Hell yeah, AI, let's go." The uh but we can't make that assumption that applies to every other uh demographic. Uh and it's a very complex situation, right? And so the Yeah. Anyway, I guess that's my point,

Margie Strickland: No,

Leonard Murphy: You know.

Margie Strickland: That's a huge point. No, I have two I have two Gen Z's and they're a little older. They're they're uh they're college or graduated college. So, but the thing about them is it's very interesting is that I they are like one of them is using AI for shopping. It does help them. it does, you know, they see recommendations and they see like, oh, okay, this is I have an ailment and this will tell me, you know, one one thing that it could be or one thing it may not be. And my other one who's still in college says, no, no, no, I got to avoid AI unless I want it to just check my report or something because I don't want to look like I'm just using

Leonard Murphy: Sure.

Margie Strickland: AI to do everything. So, I I think that there's different reasons for like the AI in there in the work.

Leonard Murphy: Sure.

Margie Strickland: But honestly, you know, one of the things I was seeing and this cap, this this goes back to something that that Sean mentioned as well was the notion of well, if AI serves back to you recommendations and they're based on the the the data that's already surfaced out there and, you know, unstructured as it is, but it comes back to them. it becomes now up to a brand to ensure that the messaging out there for their brand is something that is going to get picked up and resonated um uh resonated in a way that's actually going to be in tune with consumers. So my take is actually influencers could grow in that sense. So like you have social influencers and everything that's on social media that's being picked up. you have reviews that are being picked up uh whether it's you know Reddit or any of the forums and then you have all of the owned and paid media. So to me in a lot of ways AI could be a new source of earned media and that is even something like again if I put my social intelligence hat on which is you know an extension of traditional you know market research that's another layer that really extends itself to understanding marketers who really want to get earned media and if AI starts to capitalize on that and becomes a source of earned media then they're going to want to push even more advertisings on people or more push of They're

Leonard Murphy: Yeah, that sounds like a whole new business idea, Margie.

Margie Strickland: influencers.

Leonard Murphy: Um the uh you know there are there are influencer marketing or media uh uh marketing agencies. So um you should talk to Rosanne. I think she's still she's like she'll be like, "Hell yeah,

Margie Strickland: We're scratching the surface on so much right now.

Leonard Murphy: Let's go." Yeah.

Margie Strickland: I mean, like aic commerce is not a term I heard, you know, a couple years ago.

Leonard Murphy: And oh,

Margie Strickland: I I not at all except in the maybe the context of a travel agent, you know what I mean?

Leonard Murphy: Right.

Margie Strickland: Like but not thinking that it was going to be AI taking over my shopping experience.

Leonard Murphy: Right, right. Well,

Margie Strickland: So,

Leonard Murphy: Let's let's go there and then we'll start kind of winding up too because this is uh so I have literally the last two weeks um started utilizing uh uh clawed through perplexity. It's the my uh preferred uh AI platform to build stuff, right? Um and oh my god, right? It's like well I could do that now. I could build things. That's so cool. Uh, you know, I can make an app.

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: I can do all these things. Uh, but fundamentally it's I'm leveraging data, right? The and I'm thinking, all right, that all these ideas hadn't what if we combine that data with that data and what does what does that tell us and how do we create new solutions and oh, but that's going to cost a million bucks and six months of developers like no, it's going to take me, you know, third 3,000 tokens in 20 minutes, you know, to at least get a point of proof of concept. Um I think that's unlocking additional demand as well, right? Is we as as companies uh who are data consumers are now realizing we have access to these tools that again are decreasing friction. They're decreasing the barrier to entry. These things that we thought may have dreamed of being possible now really are. Um uh I think that's just going to increase demand overall as there's more thoughtful conversations like we're having about these different dimensions and uh uh how to get a handle on the the flux of change and whatever companies can provide that information uh to help feed that desire that thirst uh I think they're in a winning position uh overall and I only see that growing. We're just at the to your point, we're only at the beginning of this hologenic thing. Literally, the stuff I've been doing the last two weeks, you couldn't have done two months

Sean Miller: Yeah, I'm right there with you. I mean, I've lived and breathed this for probably the past month.

Leonard Murphy: Ago.

Sean Miller: Margie well knows, right? Um, this has been my uh experience down some of this um agentic technology that's come out within just the past month is mind-blowing. Um and what I've really come to the realization is I mean people are worried um you know it's the robots but it's not the robots actually I see the AI giving people superpowers right you can do
 
Leonard Murphy: 100%.

Sean Miller: More than you ever could before and in a way I think it makes us more human and I'm going to tell a little bit of a story so I was

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Sean Miller: Talking to a software engineer uh he's been manager big companies uh he's 50 years plus experience um and I asked him what's your he just started getting involved with AI as well and I said so what's your take on all of this. I expected him to be a little, you know, Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: It's taking our jobs,

Sean Miller: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Right? Yeah.

Sean Miller: And he had the complete opposite reaction what I thought.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Sean Miller: And what he said is he drew some parallels that I thought was really interesting to the indust industrial revolution. And he said that, think about it. Was was it really the best thing for humans to sit in factories with dangerous conditions and put themselves through that? Now, yes, the industrial revolution was disruptive, but it got humans out of something that you could argue humans shouldn't have really been doing in those factories, right? It wasn't very safe. You know, there were it wasn't very efficient, etc. And I see a lot of parallels now today with and again, the software industry has had a bit the tools for the software industry are a bit more advanced. Um, they've been around a little longer, so they've been hit a little harder over the past year or so. Um, however,

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Sean Miller: Um, think about it. you know, are humans really meant to be sitting in um sitting in cubicles typing away all day? And the answer to that question very well may be no. And so he's found the most interesting thing to be is the fact that he can be more human. He can focus more on the architecture, more on the important decisions actually rather than banging away and typing code all day and those sort

Leonard Murphy: One.

Sean Miller: Of things. And as I think about what that's doing now as some of these new tools have come out,

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Sean Miller: Um it really allows us to get those superpowers. And uh again, here at Luth, we have an amazing amount of tenure. Again, we've been probably doing this for longer than anyone. And so be able to have our researchers have tools that allow them to be more human. Um you know, even not even just researchers. I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm in a lot of meetings and I hate notetaking and sending action steps. I'm in operations.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Sean Miller: It is not fun. And so with the note, even just the notetakers,

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Sean Miller: It's freed me up to be so much more human in those meetings. I'm not taking notes.

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Sean Miller: I get good notes sent out afterwards. I can have action plans drawn up. I can put idea to process incredibly quick now.

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Sean Miller: And so that thought of I'm now able to be more human and do what I like doing and what the creativity and the knowledge and that and you combine that and think about what that's going to do with a team that has over a decade of experience um on average with this data is just so powerful and it's a really exciting time to be living in. You can tell I'm excited about this but you touched on something I'm passionate

Leonard Murphy: I agree.

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Sean Miller: About.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah, I agree. Oh, hardly. Margie, what were you were you gonna add to

Margie Strickland: No. No. I mean,

Leonard Murphy: That?

Margie Strickland: He's he's we are incredibly passionate about this space and and it is it is time finally finally for not just behavioral data, I think, to be uh capitalized on, but it's going to become a need. It's just it's it's such a need and a necessity that I think people have been avoiding it for so long and they're going to look to companies who have had that experience, that extra layer, that speed, agility and actionability that is going to be an ease for them to transition now into utilizing and having behavioral data uh as part of their stack of research. I mean that's I think that that's that's uh in it's eminent now and

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Margie Strickland: I I will speak from my own experience. I have yet I have never seen it like this before. And I know I've been waving, you know, cheerleading and waving this flag for 20 years that this is the, you know, this is the future. This is the way we should be moving. And I've always hit brick walls uh wherever I've gone where h it's too much money.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Margie Strickland: Oh, it's just it's not going to work. Oh, it's just too hard to get the messaging out. It's too hard to do the work. But now I honestly with AI both on either side of that coin we were talking about, it's it's a necessity and it's it's fun and it's it's just going to become much more uh of an a need and an element for for brands and and clients.

Leonard Murphy: I preaching to the choir,

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Sister. Um I uh I agree 100%. And uh it would be conscious of your time as well as the the listeners, but I think that the what I would encourage everybody who's listening one to reach out to Sean and Margie and you know to have a conversation because you guys you have been doing this longer than anybody that I'm aware of. I mean there there's multiple companies in the space and they have good products and they're doing good stuff, right? And I know many of you collaborate back and forth under the scenes. Um the uh uh but you know you you've been pioneering you've been deep in the weeds and building the use cases and the understanding of these solutions uh just longer than others just just the way it is and I think that experience so if we think about kind of the we're emerging this architectural world right and the uh so there's the the technology layer um and now with agents there's what let's think of as the orchestration layer. Um but then there is the the human layer and that human layer fundamentally is experience, intuition,

Sean Miller: Yep.

Leonard Murphy: Imagination, creativity.

Sean Miller: Yep.

Leonard Murphy: Um kind of to your point, Sean, like I I'm a dot connector. That's how I that's how my brain functions. That's why I'm pretty good at what I do. Um but I can't explain how that happens. It just kind of does, you know. Um but to be able to use data and technology uh to then say here's the dots that I see now now let's build something that allows us to do this in a sustainable way right to try and address uh real business issues to get to the so what um you know to drive performance is incredibly exciting and there is no denying it. This is where we are and it's only going to increase uh from here. So I think you guys are in the cat bird seat uh and and I hope that continues. Yeah. All right. So from preach it to the choir too, right? So uh so uh

Sean Miller: Yes.

Leonard Murphy: Final thoughts uh where can people reach you? What do you like? Hey, if you got a question about this, just kind of give your where where people can engage with you and why should

Margie Strickland: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: They?

Margie Strickland: Um, well, I mean, I'm all over LinkedIn, so I am I am posting a lot about this because I'm constantly thinking about it. I want people to reach out just to have conversations. I'm not looking for anything but intelligent conversations like this one. um because that to me helps me understand where we're going next and how best to continue to formulate new uh use cases or new strategies or you know just the conversation layer about where media is going next is is huge for me. So you can reach me uh on LinkedIn. Um I guess we'll give an email mstricklandresarch.com. Uh, feel free. I I'm I'd love to have conversations about this just to just have a couple of minutes to talk, chat, have a cup of coffee. I'm in the New York City area, so yeah,

Leonard Murphy: Okay,

Margie Strickland: Happy to happy to meet people in New York

Leonard Murphy: Very cool. Sean,

Sean Miller: Yeah. Um,

Leonard Murphy: How about you?

Margie Strickland: City.

Sean Miller: So kind of same thing. I'm on the West Coast. Um, obviously I have a bit more of a techn uh technology angle and research angle um in terms of the tools and those sort of things. So, um, happy to have a conversation about any and all of this with anyone. Um, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn and emails uh

Leonard Murphy: Okay.
Sean Miller: smiler.com.
Leonard Murphy: Okay, great. Arjent Sean, thank you so much. Um, really appreciate you taking the time. Glad we had this conversation. Um, audience, uh, pay attention, right? This, uh, uh, this is only going to be a bigger deal. And, you know, Margie and Sean and the folks at Luth have been doing this longer than anybody else. So, really encourage you to reach out. Um, and I guess that's it for this edition of the uh the CEO series.

Margie Strickland: Thank you, Lenny, for having

Leonard Murphy: So, thank you guys so much. And to our audience, uh, I'll be back again soon with another hopefully just as cool conversation as this one. Um, and that's it for now. Take care.

Sean Miller: Thanks, Lenny.

Leonard Murphy: Thank you.

Sean Miller: All right.

Leonard Murphy: All right.