Special Edition: Career Transitions in Insights with Karen Goldstein and Matt O’Mara

What does it take to stand out in today’s evolving insights job market? In this special episode of the Greenbook Podcast, host Karen Lynch welcomes Karen Goldstein, a seasoned research and technology leader formerly at Qualtrics, and Matt O’Mara, Founder and Managing Director of Cranbrook Search Consultants, for a candid conversation about career transitions, experienced talent, and hiring strategies.

Drawing on Karen’s recent experience navigating an unexpected career change and Matt’s expertise in executive recruitment, they explore the value of transferable skills, the importance of company culture, and what makes seasoned professionals valuable to organizations. They also discuss how hiring managers can look beyond job descriptions to recognize transformational talent.

Whether you’re exploring your next career move or looking to strengthen your team, this episode offers practical insights into navigating today’s competitive job market.

Key Discussion Points

• The Value of Experienced Talent: Why leadership, adaptability, cross-functional collaboration, and problem-solving skills can outweigh a perfect match to a job description.
• Navigating Unexpected Career Transitions: How experienced professionals can approach job searches strategically, identify opportunities, and find roles that align with their strengths.
• Company Culture as a Competitive Advantage: Why organizational values, flexibility, and an experimentation mindset matter when attracting and retaining talent.
• The Changing Insights Job Market: How emerging technologies and shifting industry demands are influencing hiring priorities and the skills employers value.
• Networking and Career Development: Why maintaining professional relationships, staying current with industry trends, and proactively addressing hiring concerns can help candidates stand out.

Resources & Links

• Cranbrook Search Consultants
• Open When by Camille Nicita Higley
• J.T. O’Donnell
• An Interview with Qualtrics’ Strategy & Research Suite Gurus
• Matt O’Mara, Cranbrook: AI, Jobs & the Insights Market

You can reach out to Matt O’Mara and Karen Goldstein on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Matt O’Mara and Karen Goldstein for being our guest. Thanks also to our production team and our editor at Big Bad Audio.

Transcript

[Karen Lynch] Hello everybody, welcome to a special edition of the Greenbook Podcast. I'm Karen Lynch, happy to be hosting today for what is again a unique episode and one I'm really excited to be bringing to you all. I'm joined today by Karen Goldstein and Matt O'Mara for a conversation that's going to be about career transitions, and experienced talent, and what companies are looking for when they're hiring a little bit differently. You all know I'm a baseball fan, right? So full disclosure, Matt O'Mara is as well. We've talked about this before, but Karen is what I'm calling a free agent. So she unexpectedly found herself on the job market after years in the industry, after seven years of Qualtrics. And when I found out that she was available, I quickly went to free agency because again, I'm a baseball fan. And I started thinking about players who suddenly find themselves in this position where they can get snagged by a team and people are making offers and considering the talent and what positions they can put them in very strategically, making very different decisions for their teams, just as somebody can make a very strategic decision by bringing somebody like Karen onto their teams. And I wanted to have that conversation because Karen comes to the job market. I've met Karen before at a Qualtrics X4 event where I was able to interview her and we'll share a link to that article because she's brilliant. She's a mixed method researcher with deep industry ops knowledge. She can translate complex market research methodologies with practical product development experience. She can bridge the gap between customer experience and strategy. She's got all of these skills that are critical in today's job market. And I'm telling you, she's a player, right? She is somebody that people would want on her team. And I then was thinking, who could help understand why somebody like Karen is such an asset and how companies would go about getting somebody like Karen and finding out and discovering a talent like hers? Because Matt is like a scout. He is like, again, staying with the baseball analogy because I'm a fan and I can't help myself. He is like a scout who knows what's happening in the industry at both sides. He knows the teams, he knows the players, and his job is really to connect some dots for all sides of it. So that's who Matt is. He is the Founder and Managing Director of Cranbrook Search Consultants. And I don't know that there's any industry professional that hasn't talked to Matt at this point. He's been on the Greenbook podcast. I talked to him long before I joined Greenbook. And he's just a long term expert on talent and hiring within the insights industry. He has spent years talking to professionals and companies so he knows what makes talent stand out and what helps companies land the right talent for certain positions. So I'm going to stop talking. But that's what this episode is all about. I'm excited to bring them both to you. And I'm going to stop talking and let them talk a little further. So I'm going to welcome you both to the podcast and let you introduce yourselves first and foremost, personally. Karen, I'll start with you. Welcome to the podcast. Tell everyone a bit more about yourself. And I'd say, you know, what brought you to the show?

[Karen Goldstein] First of all, thank you so much for asking me to be here. So in terms of the who I am, my career, all of that, I have always been curious, dare I say, a little obsessed with consumer behavior. And with each role that I've had over the course of my career, it's allowed me to answer those questions about why people do, think, and feel the way they do from different perspectives, using different data sources. So I started my career in syndicated. So first POS at IRI and then food consumption at NPD. I moved to custom quant global research, developed an expertise in innovation research. So the strategic segmentation, white space, and then the tactical product development, stage gate sorts of research. And then about seven and a half years ago, I moved to the research technology side and found that I have a love of building product vision, product strategy, roadmaps, building the business cases for moving into new and adjacent methodologies, like qual, like UXR, like synthetic, and then providing the content on those methodologies. And then about two years ago, the team was working on the backlog. So they didn't need any of that vision, and strategy, and methodological content. So I was having a conversation with my boss and said, okay, in the short term, how can we redeploy me to continue to have impact? She threw out a couple of ideas. And I was like eh, and then she said something with data. I was like, tell me more. And she's like, I don't know, like in the generative AI and the agentic AI stuff that we're building, we're going to need data. And I thought, oh, I could do something with that. So she gave me a small team and built out the charter on the team, then we collectively built out the processes to build out data assets built out the roadmap. And then as you mentioned, about two months ago, I was the casualty of an organizational restructuring post the acquisition of another company. And then we had a conversation about having this conversation.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad you're here. Welcome to the show.

[Karen Goldstein] Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Karen Lynch] We're gonna learn so much from you and I'm glad you're here. And Matt, you are a natural person to connect with for obvious reasons. But for those who haven't had the benefit of meeting you and talking to you and listening to the first episode, which we will also link to in the show notes. So we will link to the interview with you, Karen, and we'll also link to the podcast with you, Matt, but reintroduce yourself to the audience that has known you before and introduce yourself for the first time to those people who haven't met you before.

[Matt O'Mara] Thank you very much, Karen, it's great to be here again with you. And first and foremost, I want to say, if I'm a scout, I want to be Jonah Hill's character in Moneyball, not the old crotchety Oakland Athletic Scouts, who they were Billy Beane, the character Billy Beane berated in that scene in the conference room. I love that scene so much. Anyway, I'm Matt O'Mara. I'm the Managing Director of Cranbrook Search Consultants. We are a search firm dedicated to and focusing on the insight space. And you're right, it is a lot like being a scout, because you do kind of have to continue to look at who's in the market and just meet as many people as possible. I suspect that maybe that's tapping into some part of my background where I like to meet new people and talk to new people. So it's sort of a natural fit. But yeah, I do feel that it's superbly, really important as an Executive Search Recruiter to find as, you know, as I like to use my symbols, like try to find the fit, try to find the match, or as much of a match as you possibly could find, and focusing on the things that are most important to your client. And I know we'll get into some of those specifics in a few minutes. But really, it's just trying to make that connection to the best part that you can. And when it does, it's purely magic.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah, you know, in this, you know, full disclosure for the audience, I have a brief, this next question was not on it. So Matt, I'm going to put you on the spot for a minute. But as you're talking about executive search, and in the context of this conversation, because that is where somebody like Karen is at, right with the tenure that she has, how would you differentiate an executive search at this level, from the other job searches that many of the insights professionals in our audience might be at? Because I think there is a difference. And it may be subtle. But there is a difference between between a real search and a job hunt. And it's subtle, but I'd love for you to talk about it, Matt.

[Matt O'Mara] Yeah, I mean, I think you're spot on, because a lot of times in a senior position or a position that has more responsibility, there's not just 12 job requirements, right? Because so many of those requirements are going to be filled by any number of people, there's going to be certain parts of that job description, or in the minds of the hiring manager, there's going to be certain things that are just way more important than other. Not all 12 job requirements are created equal, and nor should they be. Some things are going to carry a lot more weight. And if you can focus on those things, and if you can make that connection to this candidate, you can you can bring a candidate to a client and say, look, this person may only have nine of the 12 or eight of the 12. But that thing that you felt was most important, this person is over indexed on that characteristic, and could easily pick up some of the other things, but it's really going to be transformational to your company. It's not that much difference, I suppose. And I'll use another sports metaphor, you know, where you're looking for the best athlete in the draft, right? The 1989 NFL draft was just stocked with with a hall of future Hall of Fame players. The Atlanta Falcons didn't need a cornerback. But Deion Sanders was sitting there at number five, they would be absolutely idiotic not to draft Deion Sanders. And they did, they drafted him, they didn't need a cornerback, because he's a transformational athlete. And I think that's what I try to focus on or try to look at is, who can who can I bring to my, my client? Of course, I want to bring somebody who's got all 12. And I want to make it a no brainer. But in a lot of cases, you can't do that. And you may have someone who is so unique, and that, again, you'd be foolish not to bring them to your client. And you have to tell them, look, this person could be transformational for your organization.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah, yeah. I love that. Thank you. And we're going to do that in this episode, we're going to bounce back and forth talking a little bit about kind of the skills that Karen or somebody like Karen brings to the table, and kind of also tapping into Matt's experience about what organizations might be looking for. And bring that all to be of value to our audience, because there are probably many people in our audience that find themselves in a situation like Karen's at. So I'm so grateful that she says, I volunteer as tribute. And I'll talk to people and be vulnerable myself. But then also, there are people in our audience who find themselves on the hiring side, who are going to learn from maybe what Karen has to offer, because they also want to be the team that a free agent might want to sign with, right? So what would somebody like Karen be looking for? And Matt can kind of be the voice of those customers as well. So we're balancing both sides here in this episode. Karen, when you think about that, and what Matt just said, and I think about the example you used about how, you know, two years ago, it was sort of like, hey, can you help me build something? And you were like, all right, I'll take on that challenge. That's not something you can trust just anybody with. So that's an example of something somebody like you was able to do. But what are some of the other skills and ways of thinking or, you know, just kind of aspects of your of the qualities that you've embodied throughout your career that have traveled with you across your different roles?

[Karen Goldstein] So, as with most people, I would think, over the course of the career, skills build. And I've had the benefit of a broad experience and exposure. And so that exposure and experience, I think makes for better solutioning and problem solving. So it's being able to build on everything that you've learned and find those connections and find those commonalities and where there may be insurmountable differences. And that is, I think, a huge skill. So like, for example, you need to have…my having an understanding of data structure that we need to be able to build or that companies need to be able to build agentic or generative products, that helps you understand the impact of technology decisions on data structure. So you're thinking more broadly. And I think thinking broadly and thinking about different perspectives is key. I find that I ask better questions of my cross-functional colleagues, whether it's a data science engineer, sales, customer marketing, to be able to assess the impact and possible repercussions of those decisions. And I think being in market research has really shaped this and has really benefited me here. I ask a lot of questions. I look for patterns and I look for connections. And I think those are skills beyond the technical research type of skills. It's being able to assess a problem and weed through important versus nice to have and really land on that holistic picture.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah. Yeah. You know, when you're facing something that you face, and I think this was in the original LinkedIn post that alerted me to the fact that you were out there and it was talking about you discovered a knack for building zero to one teams and products. And so there's something about when you're facing all these challenges and you discover things about yourself. What else did you learn about yourself in your time at Qualtrics or during the entirety of a career? What have you learned about yourself and the kind of work that you most enjoy?

[Karen Goldstein] I learned that I find ambiguity kind of fun. So like oftentimes, whether you're building teams or products, you know the problem that you're trying to solve. You know the challenge. And then an MR background really helps here as well, because you really need to understand the jobs to be done. You need to understand the goals and the non goals and what success looks like. But at the end of the day, you really need to have that root understanding of what is the job that a researcher needs when you're building product or whomever the user is. And for building products or teams, it's also having that understanding that whatever you build is not going to be spot on out of the gate. You have that messy middle and you start and then requirements might crystallize and you have micro pivots and maybe you have not so micro pivots. And that's not bad. And knowing that that's not bad, that there's learning and optimizing all along the ways. The biggest challenge is people related and coaching through that messy middle so that team members aren't discouraged or demotivated. It's really I'm thinking about having and really instilling that experimentation mindset. And that part of building zero to one, it's a big part of it. And it's also kind of fun.

[Karen Lynch] It's so funny that you say that. Sidebar: I have learned also over the entirety of my career that I really like change. There's so many people that fear change. And yet there are times when I am flat out asking for it. And there are other people that are like, no, no. And I'm like, let's do it. Let's do something radically different because my soul almost wants it. It has become something that I have learned about myself is I want the change because I want the creative challenge. So as soon as you said that, I found myself simmering like, yes. Anyway, yes. So I share that affinity.

[Karen Goldstein] And then it's also the added challenge of managing through that change so that you don't lose people along the way, both in terms of your team and then also from an understanding and enablement of cross-functional colleagues.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah, I can relate to that. Matt, and I see you nodding. It's not the next question I have for you, but I see you nodding. And I'm wondering, what is it that you're nodding to?

[Matt O'Mara] Well, it's just that sort of being comfortable with change, right? And that is actually a highly desirable characteristic in people. And Karen just mentioned also the knowledge or the emotional maturity to understand certain people aren't going to be that comfortable. And you can't just cast them aside. You have to put that, you have to bake that into the process so that you do make the change tolerable for folks who are not like Karen Lynch, who are not like, you know, jumping at the chance to make the change.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah. Are there other qualities, Matt, that are sort of like that. That are unspoken but inherently desirable at somebody at that more executive level, that you know that these companies are going to get, that they may not articulate or bake into a job description, but you know because you've seen it over and over again, that you'll get with a more seasoned professional?

[Matt O'Mara] Yeah. I mean, first on the list would be leadership, right? So has this person sought and accepted leadership responsibilities throughout their career? I'll pitch Camille Nicita Higley's book, Open When. I don't get any royalties for that, by the way. It's wonderful. And it's all about the many, many aspects of leadership. But it touches on the fact that leaders can start to exhibit leadership, you know, right off the bat in their careers. And they should be. They should be seeking opportunities to find additional responsibilities to take leadership, to take ownership. And when I see that in a resume or during the course of an interview, that's something we can really build on. That's one of those intangibles you could take to the client and say, I know you asked for this, but I'm bringing you someone who throughout her career has exhibited leadership and taking leadership. And this is the sort of person you're going to need on this team, because the team has whatever challenges. And leadership by and far is that intangible that when you see it and when it's there, it can be a real difference maker.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. What do you do, Matt, when a candidate's background doesn't fit a role as an organization has kind of, you know, outlined it, but you know, like you have that you have that experience and that either the experience or the instinct. And yet, you know, it's not a one to one correlation, but you know that this person would be right for a certain organization. How do you help them evaluate whether this is somebody that actually could be could be a fit for them?

[Matt O'Mara] Yeah, it's part of what we were talking about earlier in terms of when you sit down with the client to do what we affectionately call the kickoff call, again, using sports metaphors. And it's really trying to understand from the client perspective, what are the of the 12, I'll say 12 again of the 12 job requirements? What are the must haves? What are the things that they absolutely, absolutely have to have? And which are the requirements that would be nice to have, but not necessarily critical to the job? Again, great if all candidates have all 12. Well, what we try to do is, and insights clients love this is we try to play a little bit of a conjoint trade off where normally a client will have a pretty good sense in their mind of what the ideal candidate looks like, right. And it may be the person who's leaving. In fact, we'll oftentimes ask for that, like do you have a couple of examples, because I want to see what's in their mind's eye. And what we'll do is I'll say, okay, well, hypothetically, if I bring you three candidates, and I'll describe them and trying to make the, you know, instead of the product attributes, they're the personal attributes of the person that I'll then try to get my client to trade off, right? Because I want to find out of those variables, which one has the highest utility score, right? So is it leadership? Is it sales? Is it whatever that component happens to be? I want to see if I can get some insight from them as to what are the things that are going to drive that. And that's where we'll try to focus, right? Because I don't like to try to sell a candidate to a client. Because it feels like I'm pushing that person. And that rarely works. But what I do want to do is I want to reveal someone to say, look, you told me that operations management on a large scale was the most important thing. This person maybe doesn't have exactly all the requirements you're looking for. But this person has that, you know, again, over indexed on that on that element that you're looking for. Let's see if we can explore that. Because I think that's the most important thing that they're requiring.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah, yeah. You know, I have a couple questions for you, Karen, now, as I'm listening to him talk. And there's two things that I would think would factor into where you go next. And one, it's, how can you contribute to an organization? But I also have this other question in the background, which is the what's in it for you? You know, what do they offer? What do they have to have that would make you want to go there? And, again, I can't shake this analogy that I keep bringing into it, which is, you know, the player that that's a free agent on one team, and they get romanced by another team, and they do want to go because they're offering them something, you know, something beyond money, I'm not talking about money and why people would choose an offer. I'm not talking about an offer, I'm talking about something intangible. So let's start with the first, like, what are the ways you'd really like to contribute to an organization in the next position that you take? Like, what would fulfill you at this stage of your career?

[Karen Goldstein] So I believe I am skilled at defining initially ambiguous problems and environments. And I want to stay in research and insights. I've spent a majority of my time in the space. And even though I think my skills are applicable to other industries or functions, I love research and insights. And there's been so much change that we've seen over the course of the time I've spent in the industry, and so much evolution, which makes the space really exciting, and also chock full of ambiguity. So staying in research, I think there's a lot of work to be done either still in research technology, but also if you think about how work gets done and how decisions get made, that these skills are also applicable brand side, and then also more agency side. So to me, it's more about the environment. So I'm not saying I want to work for a Marquee, Brands, blah, blah, blah. Like, cool, it's an option. But it really is to me about the environment of the company. So it's cross functionally, how does the organization work to solve problems? And how do they view insights? And are they fun? We spend a lot of time at work. I really want to enjoy the people with whom I'm spending an awful lot of my time. So I'm not like super prescriptive, which also in one hand, it's great, because I can widen the aperture and really think about whether or not a role would give me that joy and satisfaction. But it's also a little harder because canvassing a larger area.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah, it's so interesting that you bring up quite simply the word fun. I can say this, generationally, I don't think that was something that when we first started our careers, was even an option we believed we had.

[Karen Goldstein] Certainly not voiced.

[Karen Lynch] Right, certainly not voiced. Maybe something we wanted. But certainly not something that would have been shared as a benefit in any of the interviews we had in our earlier days. And yet we find, certainly here at Greenbook, when we've hired new people, we really want to talk about it because we know it is of interest to other generations. Company culture has become something that we really have to talk about. Matt, I really want you to chime in on this because I think that we have other generations to thank, whether it started with Millennials or Gen Z really picked up that torch. But talk to me about company culture and how important it is to attracting employees of all stages right now to have a company culture that really values enjoyment. What are you seeing?

[Matt O'Mara] Well, first of all, corporate culture, company culture, when done properly, is a major differentiator, right? And the companies that do it well, they know it, right? They understand. And some of them make it look easy, while others struggle with that whole idea. And just a side note on the fun, when I was in college, my roommate's father worked at a meatpacking company in Detroit, and we would work there during the holidays, right? Because they were very busy. And it was dreadful work. Oh, my gosh. And we would complain. I'll say it that way. We would complain as we drove down with Mr. Chudler. And he would say, boys, it's called work, not fun. And I'll never forget that. But you can actually find companies that are enjoyable to work with, if not outright fun. And I think the importance of culture is companies use that as a recruiting tool if they've got it right. And to get it right takes a lot of work. It's very purposeful. It's not an accident. It takes a lot of commitment from the leadership. And it's something that you have to strive for, and that you have to be very, very specific about. You can't make compromises with your culture, because you have to meet a goal, a target, or something. And you're like, okay, well, all that stuff we talked about is all well and good, but we've got to close out the quarter. And so we're all going to work 90 hours this week, and no vacation time, and no overtime, blah, blah, blah. You've got to be true to your values. And again, we all know, and I don't want to start talking about specific companies. I don't want to do that. But we all know those companies that have that, and then companies that don't. And the companies that have it, it is so much easier to recruit for them, because you can use that as a selling feature for candidates. And frankly, candidates want to go to those companies, right? Whereas there's other companies that it's pretty well known that they don't have that intangible, that culture, and it can be problematic.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah, yeah. Matt, what would you say when you think about somebody with significant experience, and you know some of the things they're looking for, how does the search differ for somebody like that versus somebody who may be at an earlier stage of their career? How is the search process different for them when they suddenly find themselves on the market, and they come to you and say, all right, I'm going to start this process?

[Matt O'Mara] Well, especially if they've had a disruption, where they weren't expecting to start looking. Because candidates who might be experienced, who are open to look for a new opportunity, and they'll go out and start talking to companies, that person has a much different experience than someone who came to work on a Monday and found out that their entire department was being downsized. That's a very different situation. Now they're kind of being thrust into this, and oftentimes it's really difficult because they hadn't expected it. They weren't planning for it. And it may be a situation where they haven't looked for a job in 20 years, because they've always been pulled from one position to another or gotten promoted within their company. So with those folks, there's a process that they have to go through. It's a long drawn out description, but I'll just say safe to say it's a process. And you can't ignore the process, right? And early on, part of it is just recovery, right? So the person suffered a bit of a trauma, so they have to recover from that trauma. You don't want to start searching the next day. You don't want to start doing that. You want to take some time off. And I know that sounds like really bad advice, like, no, I need to find a job. But my recommendation to those folks is, no, take some time, let this settle down, and then go about building your strategy. I'm really big on search strategy. And the candidates that do that and do it well have much higher success rates and obviously faster, a better process. I won't necessarily say faster, but a better process. There are a lot of companies and individuals who coach in this space. I'm a huge fan of J.T. O'Donnell. She's got amazing content that she provides to job seekers essentially for free. She's got a paid service as well. But companies like that and people like J.T. O'Donnell provide candidates with an outline of how to build their search strategy. And once you've done that, then your networking is so much more effective. You're not just applying to jobs randomly that are coming along. You are purposely going out and networking with companies and individuals that you feel you have a better chance of adding value to that company. There's no substitute for that. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of time. But the success rate once that person has gone through that search strategy is so much higher. People that take jobs right out of losing another job oftentimes will find that they committed too soon. They chose the wrong company. They took the first available position. It's easy for me to say take your time. Ignore the footsteps that you hear. Hold on to the ball and only release it. Only make your decision once you're ready. It's easy to say, but very difficult to do.

[Karen Lynch] I have a quick question for you. Again, not in the brief, so I'm sorry, Matt. I'm so glad you can think on your feet this way. But I've heard that whether it's mythological or just old-fashioned mantra, but the best time to find a job is when you're gainfully employed or find your next job is when you're gainfully employed. And I wonder if that's actually accurate. Because I've heard my husband repeat that to our children, for example, that have talked about their career growth. And I've thought he has said that to one of my sons in his 20s who was still in the same job but talking about wanting his next job. But he's not terribly motivated. And so I'm like, is that really the right advice for him? Because he's not really motivated. So I don't know if that's really accurate advice. Anyway, have you heard that before? Is that accurate or is the best time when you can reflect on strategy, when you have bandwidth? So what do you think?

[Matt O'Mara] I think it's absolutely true because you're open to opportunities, but you're not going to chase opportunities just simply because they're there. If you're gainfully employed, you're relatively happy doing what you're doing, but you're looking and maybe you're open to having some dialogue, you’re in the driver's seat, right? And I know absolutely nothing about dating, as my wife can attest. But it's a bit like the best time to look for someone is when you're not looking for someone, right? It's when you're just doing the things that you enjoy. And lo and behold, you meet someone who shares those same values or the same interests, right? It's not that different, right? So when you're not looking for a job, but you're interacting with your colleagues at a conference or at a presentation or even at a client, where all of a sudden they say, you know, you actually could be a really good fit for our company. You know, have you considered or would you consider maybe having a discussion with us? Those things happen fairly routinely. And again, for a lot of senior or experienced market research professionals, they've been selected from one company to the next. And so they've never really looked for a job. I've talked to candidates who have been doing this for 25 or 30 years and they're like, man, I've never looked for a job in my life. You know, I've been with five different companies, but in each company, I was brought by one of my friends or colleagues. I walked out of my former company and brought to the new company. Yeah, I firmly believe that. I think your husband's absolutely right. Of course, there are some exceptions, right? But sometimes that, you know, the urgency of needing a job creates, you know, the situation where, okay, you've got to find a job.

[Karen Lynch] So not necessarily helpful to the people who find themselves disrupted, but helpful to the people who may be employed right now, listening, thinking, hmm, okay, maybe I should have that in the back of my mind also, because we never know when disruption's going to occur. So Karen, I know that you're processing a lot. You're in this situation where you're like, oh, so I am in this one situation. I'm listening to what Matt's saying, even though he's not talking to me specifically, and I'm thinking about my own life, and I'm helping our listeners. So I have really put you on the spot as well. But, you know, when you think about all of this and you think about fun and you think about what you're looking for, what are the types of environments, corporate environments, beyond fun, beyond the kind of challenge just of our industry alone, that you think would set you or somebody like you up to do your best work? What are some of the things that you think you'd really be looking for in terms of work environment?

[Karen Goldstein] One is able to pursue opportunities as they arise. And what I mean by that is not just a, here's your task list, deliver to this brief, but more along the lines of, yes, that is the core of what needs to be done. But a company that believes in an experimentation mindset, who believes in continual improvement and optimization. So like the ability to say, hey, I see an opportunity over there. I'll deliver what I am tasked to deliver, but I could do something with that. And the freedom and ability to do that. Again, for me, it's not necessarily size of business. I do like matrixed organizations. And I think it was, I was talking before about cross-functional connections. I like people. And I have a tendency to make connections with people. And so the ability to work with a wide variety of roles, and functions, and people is really exciting to me. The idea of stay in your swim lane. That if there are swim lanes, that works for some folks who like structure. I kind of like to kick the sides of things. So that ability to have some fluidity, but still know what I'm responsible for delivering. That to me is hugely exciting.

[Karen Lynch] Now is where I tie it all together. Matt, do companies like that exist right now? Or is our industry evolving to the point where Karen would find that?

[Matt O'Mara] I think so. Sure. I mean, I get asked this question a lot. What's the environment of hiring in Insights? And the simple answer is, it depends. It depends on, because it's such a highly segmented space, right? And Greenbook has some great information about the different segments and how the industry is so diverse. The Insights Association has the same sorts of things that they've put out. And that is, there are segments of the insights space, I'll call it, which are growing rapidly and doing exceptionally well. And others that aren't doing very well because of technological changes or whatever they may be. So it just depends on what segment of the industry that we're talking about. And in those places, yeah, there's excitement, and there's growth, and there's companies that are doing, as I was mentioning earlier, kind of living their values. And actually, they're really admirable companies. And others, maybe because they're struggling or they're having some other difficulties, can't possibly do that, or that wouldn't have the resources to be able to be that company with a strong culture that attracts the right people.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah, yeah. Matt, I'm going to kind of begin to wrap here, but is there anything else that insights professionals, and when I say insights professionals, UX professionals, CX professionals, anybody, data scientists, anybody in our audience, the broader audience, is there anything else they really need to know about the job market now? We're talking October 2026 when this episode is being recorded. Anything else they really need to know about kind of the current job market and what's happening out there that you wish we should just, let's just say it?

[Matt O'Mara] Yeah, I mean, sure. A couple of years ago, there were more jobs than candidates, and you could throw your line in the water and get five offers, right? Those days are gone. But it's not death and despair either. There's more of an equilibrium now in terms of the number of jobs available and the number of candidates available. So it's a bit more, and maybe there's more candidates and jobs, but it's only slightly. It's not completely out of balance. But again, it's changing, and the technologies are accelerating that change. So there are going to be certain situations where a skill set that was in demand five years ago may be less in demand now, and other skills are in higher demand. The one thing I could add on to that would be to say there's a sales technique that I learned a long time ago, and that is try to overcome objections early on in the process, right? Don't wait until the end of the sales process when your client is sitting there thinking this issue, right? And if it's price or if it's whatever it happens to be, go into the meeting, go into the process and try to address that right off the bat. And the corollary in hiring is if you're an experienced candidate, don't go into an interview or don't go into the process and expect that nobody's going to talk about the fact that you're of a certain age and have a certain amount of work experience. Because in the back of their mind, they're thinking this person doesn't have enough career runway left. This person is going to be too expensive. This person is going to be dissatisfied with the work, whatever they happen to be. Go in right away and say, look, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking I don't have enough career runway left. I'm here to tell you I'm going to work for the next seven to ten years with no exception. I'm healthy. I want to do this. And the average job tenure is about five years, so this is not an issue. You can hire me without having to worry about that. And boom, you've talked about the thing that nobody wants to talk about. And if it's salary, come right out and say, look, I've made more money in my career, but at this point in my life my kids are out of the house. College has paid off. Our investments are doing well. I don't need to make this much. I'm very comfortable at this level. Boom. You've at least tried to overcome the objection because when you don't do that, when you leave it unsaid, it lingers in everybody. It lingers in the minds of the hiring managers and you're going to be at a disadvantage when it comes time to selecting the person who gets hired.

[Karen Goldstein] And they fill in the answers versus you, the person who's looking for the next role, filling in the answers.

[Karen Lynch] That’s great.

[Matt O'Mara] Take the initiative and get your answer out there. Good. Great point, Karen. Get your answer out there so that it's part of that dialogue there. It may be just an internal dialogue, but as part of the dialogue of the hiring manager.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you. Karen, then I am going to let you get the last word here. What would be some kind of words of wisdom you would give to anybody who is navigating the unexpected career transition? Because you've now had a few weeks to navigate. What would you share with anybody who finds themselves in the situation you have found yourself in?

[Karen Goldstein] So I think the first one is keep current with skills. I mean, our industry is evolving very quickly. So that's a no brainer. You need to be able to be fluent in what's happening in the industry. The other piece is, and this is not something to pick up when you find yourself in this position, but it really is, I've talked a lot about cross-functional collaboration and building those relationships. That, to me, is huge. So I've been reaching out to people and having conversations with people that I worked with 20, 25 years ago. And it was the, you know, we've kept in contact all along the years, but it was the, hey, care to chat and immediate response. So the importance of relationships is huge. And, you know, if you look at roles on LinkedIn, there are five, six, a thousand people applying for a particular job. So it's like, how do you get noticed? And it's through your network. It's the who do you know? Who's there that can vouch for you and say, put this at the top of your pile, flag for follow-up. And the conversations that I've had have been, and the networking conversations I've had, have been more those sorts of conversations. So interpersonal relationships, I think, is huge because hopefully people hire known quantities.

[Karen Lynch] Yeah. Yeah. And I think for the experienced professional, those networks are large and vast. And certainly point in case, as soon as I saw where you were and, you know, we had met in person that one time I jumped immediately because you made a great impression on me as well. Friends, I'm just so grateful that you were both here and you were both willing to talk to me about this topic. To everybody listening, we will add many, many of these resources that Matt brought up to our show notes. We hope that both Karen and Matt were able to inspire you and encourage you and please feel free to send us feedback. You know how to reach us on [email protected] with any feedback that you have on this episode or other episodes. Any final words that either of you would like to share with our audience before we wrap?

[Matt O'Mara] I just want to follow up on what Karen just said, especially for experienced candidates. Networking is essential because what Karen described in terms of just that little recommendation from someone within an organization or even somebody from outside the organization who knows the hiring manager removes some of the uncertainty and that could be all the difference they needed.

[Karen Lynch] Thank you so much, Matt, for being here today. Karen, any final words?

[Karen Goldstein] I think Matt's wrap up was perfect, but thank you so much for inviting me to join that. This was fun. I like fun.

[Karen Lynch] How to make a really important topic fun. You two. Well, you know what, this is going to be really, really cheesy, but there's really nobody else I'd like on my team than the two of you. So thank you both so much. Thank you to Emma for producing this special episode. I really appreciate you. Big Bad Audio, you know how much I appreciate you for cleaning us up every single time we go. And to our listeners, I appreciate you and hope that we brought you some value with this special edition of the Greenbook Podcast. We will see you next time. Have a good day, good afternoon, good evening. We'll talk to you soon. Bye everybody.