From Fed Analyst to SaaS CEO: Aaron Kechley on Data Ownership and Leadership

Lenny Murphy interviews Aaron Kechley, the new CEO of Zappi. Aaron shares his fascinating journey from economic analyst at the Federal Reserve to leading a cutting-edge market research technology company. Discover how Aaron's background in analytics, software development, and digital marketing uniquely positions him to lead Zappi's mission of helping brands own their consumer data. Learn about the critical importance of first-party data assets for brands, especially as they face increasing pressure from retailers in the battle for consumer insights.

Whether you're a market research professional, brand marketer, or leadership enthusiast, this conversation offers valuable perspectives on the intersection of technology, consumer insights, and organizational development.

Thanks again to Aaron Kechley for being our guest. You can connect with him on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Leonard Murphy: Hello everybody. It's Lenny Murphy with another edition of the CEO series. Thanks for taking time out of your day to spend with myself and my guest. And today I'm joined by someone whom I have wanted to speak to for a while. Finally, the fates of align for us to do that. Aaron Kekley, the new CEO of Zappi. Aaron, welcome. …

Aaron Kechley: Thanks, Lenny. To be Great to meet you at Lance as well.

Leonard Murphy: let's see if you think that when we're done, but for the moment and I say new, but it's been what about a year now, less than six months,…

Aaron Kechley: No, less than six months actually. Yeah. Yeah. October 1. Yeah. Just at the start of Q4.

Leonard Murphy: Time gets weird. So, new is still the appropriate term.

Aaron Kechley: Yes, we're pretty new.  I'm going to claim new. Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: All For those who don't know kind of let's just get into your background and origin story. Bring us up to speed to that.

Aaron Kechley: Yeah. …

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Kechley: Hopefully this is okay. I'm going to go way back to the very beginning because you said origin. So, I'm gonna take it literally.

Leonard Murphy: Okay.

Aaron Kechley: So as an undergrad in college, I was an economics did a thesis on capital market efficiencies very quantitative kind of work. And my first job out of college actually was an economic analyst at the Fed. I was a petroleum analyst I wrote briefing reports for Greenspan and was on paper very cool. in practice I found I liked doing things more than talking about them and thinking about them only. and so the internet boom kind of happened around then and I jumped shipped from the economics track that I was on intending to get a PhD and went to start coding software for the internet. So I did some of the web's earliest commerce websites back in those days. So I'm proudly dating myself that I was around and doing things back then.

Leonard Murphy: Mhm. Okay.

Aaron Kechley: And I turned out I had a pretty good knack for software development and did a lot of coding of large databases and hooking up databases to the web which was novel at the time like that would jet some cutting edge so I did that for a number of years and then I sort of got to a point where I was much more interested in the commercial side of it. I decided that was more interesting than just a pure coding path. and I went to business school. and this is kind of during the.com bust right after, I guess. And so, it was a good time to sort of regroup professionally, mentally and, figure out what I wanted to do next. And then from there, I went into, a pretty long career of doing at software companies. so about 25 years experience overall operating roles which is how private equity refers to it. The rest of us they call them jobs. Yeah, Had jobs in a lot of software companies. Probably the last 15 years or so, I was doing a lot in the programmatic media, digital coupons, digital promotions. at a company called Data Zoo, which was acquired by Roku and it became the Roku ad platform. So, I spent about nine years at Data Zoo, a long time. and then I moved to a company called Inar Intelligence where I ran a division running their coupon business and retail media business sort of new burgeoning retail media business. Inar does digital coupons for Kroger and Publix and a bunch of other big retailers private equity owned also. And so there's a through line there of…

Leonard Murphy: Mhm.

Aaron Kechley: If you can see it heavy analytics very early in my career a lot of econ economic econometrics work into software and then digital media and digital marketing it's really about using big data to help marketers make better faster decisions which really led me to Zappy which is exactly what Zappy does and Zappy does it with smaller data but  much richer data. in that we are working with consumer survey data. really kind of getting underneath the transaction, what that someone does into why they do it or why what they think, about an ad or new product concept. so I've been helping marketers for now probably 15 years. That's been probably the biggest chunk of my career in product and general management, executive roles, for quite a while. And the opportunity Zappy came along and I was smitten the things that they're doing with we are doing with analytics and…

Leonard Murphy: Mhm. Right.

Aaron Kechley: The automation of that kind of work. I try to build products kind of like that in the media space because at the end of a media campaign you always need a wrap report. somebody somewhere needs to see how' the campaign what did we learn? how many outcomes did we get? That kind of thing.  And we never had enough analysts to produce them quickly enough if we were running a managed service and if it was self-service you put that on the user to have to put that together and so we tried to automate that and it was really hard to do and so when I saw how far Zappy had come for instance in that particular area just automating a very complex analytical process I was super impressed and so that kind of really caught my attention and then the more I learned about the company and the team and what it was doing, it just became more and more interesting. So, that brings up dead 25 years in three or…

Leonard Murphy: Okay, there we go.

Aaron Kechley: Four minutes. Not bad.

Leonard Murphy: Hey, that was impressive. So, I don't think that I could be condense things in that quickly. and I did get the through line as you started to go. So that's interesting of you've always been until now on kind of the activation side of things where now you're the behind the scenes to lead up to that from the way I kind of think about it is that marketing life cycle is to engage, understand and activate, right? And each of those are chunks for specific functions.

Aaron Kechley: Hey, what are you doing? Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: And there's always been a firewall between kind of the understand component and the activate component, which thought for quite some time,…

Aaron Kechley: Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: That's just dumb. I mean I understand from a research standpoint obviously historically we wanted to not have bias and all those good things but in the era of data the connectivity for individualized marketing driven by deep individual profiles which research should inform has always seemed like a brainer. So with your I would say Zappy wasn't quite there yet. With your background and perspective is that without giving away strategic secrets are you thinking more of where's that how do you build that connective tissue between platforms like Zappi that have rich data that can be useful for pinpoint targeting and certainly optimization to make those connections into the broader kind of marketing ecosystem.

Aaron Kechley: Yeah, it's a good point. Yeah. so I am new to market research. as you're hinting and I think there is a lot of opportunity to better connect the learnings that come from studies early or later in the development cycle to activation.  And as you're kind of saying that increasingly we ought to be able to do that, I mean because on the digital media side there's virtually, unlimited ways and ability to target media at certain, users. nowadays your viewers probably know this, but you buy one impression at a time for the most part, so you're not locked into old school I gotta buy a big upfront block of TV and then you kind of get who you get. you do your best to figure out who's in that audience and hope after that and Neilson will measure it and tell you how you did. now you can really target much more specifically but there is connectivity that's missing between these kinds of systems. so if you think of a media buying platform, they in theory can take any segment in and use that as a basis of a, ad campaign, but companies aren't doing that a ton where kind of more psychographic or even just defying any particular, you may find a segment where your concept really pops. And then you're going to try and figure out, what defines that segment? And it's going to be all these attributes that don't really line up to a demographic or, some other obvious thing that that's observable,…

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Aaron Kechley: And so psychographic, I guess, is a term people will use for that. But in practice, there isn't a ton of that translation happening that I've seen. and I think some of the pressures there are that, media buyers and sellers want stuff that scales. they want stuff that's efficient. and sometimes you can get these segments that are exactly on the money, but that you can only spend, $50,000 in, nationwide in a span of a week, and their budget is 500. And their job as media buyers is like, you spend the budget. You've got to spend the budget. You can't kind of,…

Leonard Murphy: Right.

Aaron Kechley: Hold back. I learned this early on, it's almost equally as bad to not spend the budget as to overspend the budget in media. you get about equally penalized. and so I think, there's this probably kind of age-old tension between, executability and scale versus precision. and I think there's, certainly more I think Zappy's got, an opportunity to help there. I think one thing that can really help u which sort of gets to the heart of Zappy's strategy I would argue is I think first brands need to own that data I think if you don't own the data and there's just getting the kind of the traditional deck the PowerPoint deck that says here's your segment you don't really have a segment to model off of you don't have a set of data that you can go do something else with at the end of that study you just have the deck whereas with Zappy platform, we can provide, a long-term broad curated first-party data set, that's a byproduct of your usage of the platform.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Aaron Kechley: And I think that does sort of pave the way to being able to do much more targeted intentional types of media buying, which I think is super interesting. but even organizationally though it still kind of crosses the chasm a lot of times where this department does the research and then this department or often usually the agency is executing somehow on the media plan. So they'll get a brief and that's kind of the bridge from one to the other but you know how it turns out on the other side is not perfectly coordinated or aligned still. So I think there's opportunity there for sure…

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Aaron Kechley: And I think but it starts with the data. You've got to own your data as a brand first, I think. and help your agency understand what you have. A lot of times the agency may not even be aware, they're so far removed from that. help the agency understand, figure out, how can you make it accessible to the agency so that they could actually do something with it in a media campaign.  So there few thoughts on that. Yeah. Right.

Leonard Murphy: That's interesting and while you're talking I hadn't ever quite thought of it quite in this way that I mean historically you look at the large publicists and WPP and etc etc Stagwell I think is going down this path of trying to connect those components or at least having the components I think arguably if look WPP and Canar of course and they were an early, early advocate of Zappy as well.

Aaron Kechley: Right. Yeah. Stop.

Leonard Murphy: And you see, you've got the pieces, but no one's ever seem to pull it together. while from a competitive standpoint, we have Amazon, Google, Facebook, the Apple, they've pulled it together so in a very different way, But they're just using, the data exhaust that they have from a user standpoint to make that connectivity overall. And hence why they have been successful in building fairly amazing ad networks so that for brands PNG whoever manufacturers they're obviously not built that way so they've been relying on companies either the agencies to pull it off who did not or the zappies to help to your point give them the ammunition to be able to go  to the broader marketing ecosystem to do that. But it just has never seemed to gel overall. I think everyone has shared the vision, but there is a missing element. and my point is maybe that missing element really is the siloed organizational structure versus the data. The data assets have been there. The connectivity components are not the technical challenge per se because the infrastructure exists. It is that utilization across the organization. how does that resonate with you Mhm. Sure.

Aaron Kechley: Yeah, right. I think it definitely resonates.  I mean, I think that and you probably have a few things happening at once, as is often the case in a complex, market ecosystem. but, it's often the case in all kinds of technology categories that the last thing to change is the organizational mindset, right?  So no surprise that that would be true here as well, especially when we're dealing with some of the largest companies in the world, So that I mean, the companies that spend the most on media and market research are big huge brands. often pretty steeped in their history. yeah, so it for sure resonates. I think though at the same time I mean that it is still a little bit newer that companies have their own data asset of market research like respondent level data right it's not brand new…

Leonard Murphy: Sure.

Aaron Kechley: But it's newer than programmatic media buying is actually by probably five or six or seven years and even today a lot of companies maybe even most still don't have that right where I would say in the adoption  of what we as Zappy refer to as connected insights which is just that idea that a brand owns and curates their own data asset rather than an agency owning it and kind of dishing out PowerPoint text. We're still pretty early in the adoption cycle of that idea. If you follow crossing the chasm early adopters maybe we're crossing over but just I would say not it hasn't been a long time and so while the technology on the media buying side may have been there for a while the data asset on the brand side is newer I think and so that plus the org differences and competing agendas I think we're just getting to a place where you could really start doing that stuff and then the org is going to have to decide how to prioritize that idea of going more directly from the research the insights there and to the media buying to the activation

Leonard Murphy: No. Right.

Aaron Kechley: But it's an exciting time and I think CPGs in particular where we do a lot of work with C not only but quite a lot they don't have direct customer relationships right unlike Apple or…

Leonard Murphy: Right. Yes.

Aaron Kechley: I think any of the other companies you named Amazon right and so they're really beholden and reliant upon their retail distributors to give them data so in the last few years I spent quite a lot of time on retail media and I saw this playing out very clearly there's just a giant power struggle going on between retailers and brands and the retailers have all this data and they lord it over the brands and…

Leonard Murphy: Absolutely.

Aaron Kechley: They make the brands buy this media that the brands don't really want to buy. You might be okay buying some of it, but not as much as the retailers wanted to buy. The retailers are being squeezed by Wall Street and others to fatten their bottom line. Media is a great, high margin alternative revenue source. So, on it goes. But, why does this work? in part because the retailers have so much more data on the consumers than the brands do. And so I think this opportunity for brands to build and curate this data asset like what Zappy empowers them to do is a really big idea has a ton of potential not only in activation…

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Mhm. Yep.

Aaron Kechley: But in their AI strategies as well, right? I mean large language frontier models, There are a lot of choices.  I think we've all finally realized there's not going to just be one winner that takes the prize on having the best language model. So you can kind of assume commoditization in the model layer. what's the differentiator then? it's going to be the data. If I have generic data and a generic model, I'm going to get a generic strategy or generic outcomes from the AI. If I have unique novel insights and I put that into powerful even if commoditized models, then I can get unique outputs. And so I think this category u of data that Zappy works on…

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Aaron Kechley: Which is rich with What else did I buy? How often do I buy? That's retail style data, Very valuable.  But why did I choose it over the other thing, I think that's more powerful fundamentally. and it's going to lead to for the brands that embrace this data strategy, I think it's going to lead them to outsiz performance in the age of AI, which is a pretty big deal. and some of that is an activation idea, but some of it's also like, but what products are you even coming up with. So yeah lot of interesting intersections between activation and AI and the data and I think the early adopters certainly are recognized this and I think others are waking up to it.  Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah, I agree. And yeah, it's been interesting watching Zappy particularly over the years with establishing the relationship with PepsiCo and with Stefan and really partnering at least from my perspective being that you found a great partner in PepsiCo as an early adopter to excuse me bring this vision to life building towards that which has also been a great test case for other folks to say okay that's what you're getting from Pepsi. We can, let's jump on board and go down that path together, which has just been a really neat thing to observe. Yeah.

Aaron Kechley: Yeah, the Pepsi partnership is really quite something. I have to say, obviously I've spent time with Stefan and Kate in particular and gotten to know them a bit and their attitude towards partnership is unusual, I would say. Unusually strong and collaborative, and so yeah, it can't say enough good things about that. and certainly it's helped Zappy quite a lot as well. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah, let's want to switch gears a little bit to think about the challenge of coming in as the new kid on the block, the CEO in a company that you was so strongly founder. Obviously people when you think of Zappy you think of Steve and…and Ryan and Julio and this group of folks that were just incredibly good at being front and center being evangelists for the business over the years because that's what they needed to do is as part of the kind of the founder growth the company reaches a different phase which is absolutely how this goes right you reach a certain point and you're either going to private an equity, you're going for an IPO. it's just the way it works.

Aaron Kechley: Yeah. Right.

Leonard Murphy: And often the skill sets of the founders are not the appropriate skill sets for driving growth to the next level. What's that been to be in that transition of coming into a really neat company built relationships like Pepsi that were very personality driven I think they were very very personal relationships now coming in to get to the next level just insight you've le ganed from

Aaron Kechley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question as you can imagine. I spent a lot of time thinking about that and adjacent topics and even as I was considering the role that was something that was I thought quite a lot about right is a company more than the front man or…

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Aaron Kechley: Front couple of people if it's actually not a great company I argue right and so I looked really closely I thought a lot about that and I saw when I was considering taking the role that it was definitely about way more than just the personalities that a lot of people and I think the product itself is incredibly strong. a lot of our engineering is at Cape Town. I spent a week with our engineering team not too long ago. I came away even more impressed after, spending time with them, seeing kind of what they were building, how they were thinking about it.

Leonard Murphy: Sure.

Aaron Kechley: Even into things like how many bills a day are they doing and just kind of really looking at the mechanics of our software development process. So I think the strength of Zappy goes way beyond the personalities that you mentioned but of course people those are those three in particular people that the industry knows quite a lot. and so I think all of them have been incredibly gracious and helpful in getting me up to speed and so have a great relationship with all of them. Steve is still chairman of the board. He's our chief innovation officer. We meet all the time and he's been a great Julio obviously chief customer officer doing great things for us. Ryan was a great partner. He left recently as some folks may know, I'm happy for him. he just wanted something different. I think he was here 11 years, and that's a long time for anybody,

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. and…

Aaron Kechley: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: I always forget how young Ryan is, Still a lot of fire in the belly.

Aaron Kechley: So, I'm really happy for Ryan. he's local. I'm in Boston, so we see each other time to time and we're still in touch and wish the best for him. I decided that, my own style as a leader was not going to be to replace the frontman personality that was there, which would be hard for me to do any anyway, even if I wanted, because it's so rooted in the industry itself, it's be hard for someone to come in, and sort of supplant 11 years or replicate 11 years of podcasts and whatnot. You can't do that. but I also think at the same time it's much better and you need a comp,…

Leonard Murphy: Yeah, right.

Aaron Kechley: For a company of our size to not have kind of such a personalitydriven leadership style because what happens is it sort of can crowd out other talent that's on the bench, right? And sometimes I think of it as if Michael Jordan's on your team, you have one strategy which is you pass the ball to Michael Jordan. There's no other strategy. that's what you do.  So you might have these great players who aren't getting as much playing time and maybe the really great players don't even want to be on that team in the first place. because they want to shine in their own way. or you may just have people that are a little bit underdeveloped in of the areas that we need them to be. So I think a lot more about building a bench. I want 20 people that can get on a stage or 50 or 100, right? That's what we're going for in our next chapter. and so it's less of I'm not replacing, a personalityled leadership model with another one that is my personality. I'm trying to have leadership at all levels really, which is something we talk about. which is the idea that, people can think one level up from where they're at. They take responsibility for the tone they set for their outcomes, not relying on leaders to solve all their problems, really with competence and clarity of mission that they are empowered and entrusted to solve more of their own problems. So that's kind of something we're working on is really trying to push decision- making,…

Leonard Murphy: Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Kechley: Decision authority down more in the org. from I think where it had historically been as more in this more startup stage which is typical in my experience that's common and when organizations get larger in fact in order to become larger they have to have more management talent ability authority at lower levels right because you as a single leader at the top you just can't keep up with everything and so what'll happen is your growth will just start slowing if that's the way you're running things. so, I think it's a big moment for Zappi, and exciting one for me and so that those are some of my thoughts on that topic. but obviously that, those colleagues of ours are great. Ryan's still a shareholder and a big supporter of Zappi and likewise, we're a fan of his and wish him well.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah, it's interesting. I've been looking at a concept lately that a consultancy called HFS that somehow got in a mailing list and…

Aaron Kechley: Thank you.

Leonard Murphy: I got this of service is software has been what they have characterized and as soon as I saw it I thought s*** yeah that's in this era right and particularly in the research space my personal contention is there's no pure SAS platform that has ever been successful or…

Aaron Kechley: Mhm. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Ever will be successful in this industry, It just doesn't work that way. there has to be a service component. And the trick is how to optimize that and listening to you the thinking of scaling technology is relatively easy right those are engineering issues and scaling people that help drive loyalty and engagement with brands that's a different challenge and is still necessary and service software concept kind of focus on that of look let's just take there of AI right technology makes all the process stuff easy right you just implement and change etc etc so you focus on this concept of scaling out the talent to really support the growth in business and the efficiency gains from a technology standpoint anyway listening to you made me think about that because I think it's just a fascinating concept and that's what I hear.

Aaron Kechley: I haven't heard of that before specifically, but I'll have to check it out.

Leonard Murphy: I'll send you something. I actually did a analysis over the weekend of it because I was thinking about another client had asked about that concept so I just did kind of a summary. it's pretty cool. and I think it's a click. Yeah. But the idea is that to get to the next level of growth, it's not just having a whole bunch of low-level people who, are just pushing buttons. That's not the point. What I hear from you is it is scaling talent. So it's not you or even, you want a hundred steves. You want to,…

Aaron Kechley: Correct. Yeah...That's right.

Leonard Murphy: Want to be conscious of your time as well as is any lessons for emerging leaders, right? That there's just as Zappy was a disruptive company that emerged kind of a great influx of automation platforms that all kind of emerged roughly 11 years ago we're in a whole other cycle now of just tons of startups entering the space because their barrier to entry is lowered because of AI so what would you share with folks that here are the critical messages it's a wisdom for pay attention and how to grow.

Aaron Kechley: Yeah. Yeah. I probably would go back to what we were just talking about, which is I think you really got to balance carefully, as a leader, even in the early stages. how much you are telling what people should do being the all- knowing expert, which in the early days you might be because that's how and why you started the company you started.  I mean, if we're talking about, really early stage stuff, but I think you've got to balance that with allowing people the space and taking the time for them to internalize what are you doing and why are you doing it? So that as soon as you hit your 5 million in revenue, now you kind of start sputtering because everyone is sort of looking to you as what do we do next? and this this thing's not working quite right. You realize you're kind of by yourself. Everyone expects you to figure out how to get to the next 10 or 20 million, where maybe not as obvious. And so I think a lot about, how do you make sure you're not on the journey alone, as I mean a leadership position is always lonely to some degree, and CEO positions as well, probably even more But I think you want to lead in a way that people will bring their best passion and creative thinking to the role of problem solving the role to their role. So that you're not the constant problem solver and everyone else is just doing what you're telling them to do. so that's probably my one piece of advice.

Leonard Murphy: Yep. Yeah.

Aaron Kechley: It's hard to do, a lot easier to say this than to do it. Especially if you're trying to go fast because a lot of times if you do know more than the people working for you or your colleagues, it's faster just to tell them, And get on with it instead of have hours of deliberation just to get to the answer you already knew.

Leonard Murphy: I feel that as a parent, right? Yep.

Aaron Kechley: But if what you forfeit along the way is that when things don't go as planned or you're wrong or it's harder than you thought or whatever then by not taking that time and leading in that way I do think you find yourself a little bit more on your own right which it leave you vulnerable so it's a trade-off I totally respect the challenges on both sides of it, but that would be my advice is just at least be aware of it you And…

Leonard Murphy: Yep. Yeah.

Aaron Kechley: If you're choosing to skip past that part where you're bringing people along with you in the interest of expedience, just be aware you're doing that, and at some point, you probably will pay for it, but the long run might be four or five years from now and, right now you're just trying to raise your next round, so that's tomorrow's problem. So I could totally appreciate the dilemma. it's hard. Yeah. …

Leonard Murphy: No, that is Great advice. As a recovering CEO myself, the reason I am not a C nor do I want to be is because of that tendency myself to be in the business versus on the business.

Aaron Kechley: I'm in the same way.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. I mean, I'm going that way as a dad,

Aaron Kechley: Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Hey son, take trash out. A s***. I'm just going to say trash out. the same mentality of having impatience to just get it done.

Aaron Kechley: Exactly. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Yes.

Aaron Kechley: But you might take the trash out on the wrong day because it was a holiday, and then you missed it and guess whose fault that is yours,…

Leonard Murphy: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Mhm.

Aaron Kechley: It's a hard problem and it's something I personally work on a lot as a leader, more and more over the years and the bigger organizations I've run, I've realized you just have to do it that way. you can't know more than everybody about everything. it's just not possible out after a certain point. even if you wanted to, you can't. so yeah so it's tricky but I think yeah it takes one to know one is how I put it sometimes of like I know I have the tendency to do it too so I can see it when others are doing it. And it can be helpful just running a leadership team to say hey we all have this tendency to kind of want to get in there and tell people because we have a lot of experience and we know what to do a lot of times but you got to try and resist it otherwise you underdevelop your talent.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Kechley: Yeah. this has been great.

Leonard Murphy: No, that's great advice. Erin, is there anything else that you want to touch on that we haven't?

Aaron Kechley: I would love to do it again sometime and we can pick up other topics then but no it's really good questions. Appreciate it and appreciate the time with you and with your viewers. So thank you so much Lenny.

Leonard Murphy: No. Thank you, And I agree. We'll definitely be back. where can people find you this?

Aaron Kechley: It email you mean or yeah you can email me or…

Leonard Murphy: If someone wants to connect with you, what is your preferred method of someone to connect with you?

Aaron Kechley: LinkedIn probably. I'm not as much of an exus user as some maybe…

Leonard Murphy: Okay.

Aaron Kechley: But LinkedIn is pretty good. So yeah,…

Leonard Murphy: All Erin, thank really appreciate it. Definitely.

Aaron Kechley: Very good.

Leonard Murphy: We will chat again and to our listeners thank you for your time again and I were trying to connect and never have this gave us a good excuse to do that because of our listeners and big shout out to our producers sponsors etc etc that's it for this edition of the CEO series we'll be back with another one real soon thanks a lot bye-bye.