Entrepreneurs in the Lying Economy: How Early Studies Uncovers Hidden Consumer Truths

Lenny Murphy speaks with Sam Peskin, CEO and co-founder of Early Studies, about their innovative "Future Perfect" methodology that helps brands uncover what consumers truly think by focusing on social circle perspectives rather than direct questioning. Sam shares how their unique approach to consumer psychology combines social circle surveying with a "triple tense technique" to identify shifting trends and hidden signals in consumer behavior.

Through fascinating case studies and insights from Sam's entrepreneurial journey, this episode explores how Early Studies is challenging traditional research methods to help organizations better understand the "lying economy" and predict future consumer trends with remarkable accuracy. Whether you're in market research, brand strategy, or consumer insights, this conversation offers a fresh perspective on understanding the gap between what people say and what they actually do. 

Thanks again to Sam Peskin for being our guest. You can connect with him on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Leonard Murphy: Hello everybody. It's Lenny Murphy with another edition of our CEO series of interviews. The CEO and co-founder of Early Studies. Welcome, Sam.

Sam Peskin: Hi Lenny, how you doing?

Leonard Murphy: I'm doing all It's great to have a little bit of background. this is going to be a little bit different for the series because early studies is also an early company. and little bit of history. It's kind of the cool moxy of an entrepreneur. Sam had released a second report of data and was targeting folks on LinkedIn and reached out to me and I downloaded the data. It's like who is this guy? what are they doing? and found it really really interesting and then we struck up a dialogue and here we are now. I don't want to steal Sam's thunder and anymore and talking about early studies and what you're doing. So Sam, there's the softball pitch for you to talk about your origin story.

Sam Peskin: My origin story for sure. I guess my career has kind of been a journey of understanding human behavior through different lenses. the last proper job I had, I was part of the founding team of a building. So I was kind of in real estate called 180 Strand, which has become one of the most notable and valued cultural centers in London. I'm kind of working backwards here. That was trying to understand postcoid people's needs and demands for the spaces that they work in and socialize in. And trying to get to a much deeper level of understanding of what people do when they're in a large building. What do people need when they're looking to create, recreate, socialize, mix of other people and work? but I came to that having been a solo consultant for six years and previously to that I was part of the executive team at Vice. I helped to grow Vice from London through Europe and in the Middle East. and that I guess was in large part trying to understand the millennial generation that were interacting with media completely differently.

Leonard Murphy: No.

Sam Peskin: Had very different thoughts about the world post 2008 and the financial crash. I was also one of them.  It feels kind of weird now that everyone talks about Gen Zed that this was talking about millennials and it wasn't that long ago, but some things have changed and some of the way that people talk about young people remains the same. But that was trying to help brands to understand a generation whose habits were totally different to what they were used to. previously to that I'd grown up in digital ad brand agencies. and then eventually, I mean, I never had planned on going into research, but in hindsight, seemed like a natural place where I would have ended up. I came together with a very close friend called Alfred Malmro. We'd known each other about 15 years. He also had been in and around business and marketing in similar fields to me, but we had never worked together. And we started talking about research and consumer insights and trying to understand what we called consumer psychology and better. And it started through the lens of therapy.  We were both longtime therapy addicts and we talked about brand strategy as a very difficult thing to do for yourself kind which is kind of similar to therapy. You can't do therapy on yourself. you need a sounding board. Then we started to dig into lots of different theories about psychology and therapy techniques and started thinking about applying them to consumer research. Eventually happened upon the technique of social circle surveying which is a technique whereby you ask people to reflect on the behaviors and habits and drivers of their friendship circle or their community the people close to them. and from there we developed a methodology that we call the future perfect methodology which I can talk to you about in a little bit which we apply to everything through different lenses and from different angles but helping both brands and increasingly non-governmental organizations people in the realm of politics financial institutions answer big questions and…the nitty-gritty questions about why people behave in the way that they do.  But importantly, the things that people lie about and how to circumvent the things that make people lie and understand deeper truths and hidden truths that guide people's decision-m and behavior.

Leonard Murphy: The very cool and for your story is very familiar to post. there's not many of us that decide to be in this industry. we all and myself included we just kind of wind up here. so that's an very familiar story. the future perfect methodology and I do want to dig into it for the audience. I interpret it as a variation of prediction market u approach which is something that has great credibility…

Sam Peskin: Mhm.

Leonard Murphy: But yet low adoption. it's been one of those challenges in the industry to get people to actually embrace the truth that we are often dishonest and not purposely. We just know as humans social bias blah blah blah you the reasons why we don't always say exactly what is true and sometimes hell maybe as humans maybe we're almost incapable of having that lens of self-reflection this methodology helps eliminate that or at least to limit it in many ways and I've been a big fan for years with multiple companies that have tried to do this tell me what that discovery. Let's talk about the methodology that you use and some of the moments you've had in deploying that and trying to bring it to market with folks. What has that been like the lion economy?

Sam Peskin: So yeah to talk to the first element your question we kind of in a lofty way think of ourselves as entrepreneurs in the lying economy. We see the…

Leonard Murphy: That's the first I heard that one before, Sam. All right, go ahead.

Sam Peskin: And I'll break that down for you, but we see the beauty in untruthfulness and that lying is something that everyone does in order to create and frame their own narratives, their own ways of engaging with the world to make us feel comfortable in ourselves and our identities every day.  But we've really built our methodology around the insight that people are better predictors of others behaviors than they are of their own. and so social circle emanates from political polling. It was invented by practiced by a guy called Christopher Rmstrom who is a Swedish philosophy professor who's known to Alfred who's also Swedish.

Leonard Murphy: Mhm.

Sam Peskin: And he started around the time of the first Trump election asking instead of asking people how they were going to vote, asking how they thought their neighbors were going to vote or what proportion of their street was going to vote Republican or Democrat, etc. and by doing that accur accurately predicted the outcomes of a number of elections in the US and the UK and Europe. and it's come to prominence again in the last US election with a guy I know that you're familiar with,…

Leonard Murphy: We did right.

Sam Peskin: The French whale we've talked about this who in the summer last year and it's a long read that people can read about in the Wall Street Journal I think was the first to break the story where he engaged Canar I believe it was to go in the seven swing states and asked people how they believed their neighbors were going to vote. he did this got his data set I think by around August September knew that if his data was correct that Trump was going to win by a landslide in all of the seven swing states and placed a bet on poly market and won $85 million on that bet. So to rewind to when we discovered it, we talked about this idea with Christopher and started thinking about what it would be like being completely naive to the research industry and not knowing the people and I met some people who have practiced it through you and through other people lately, but trying to experiment with what that would look like in consumer research and trying to look at if we ask people about others in a number of different  ways would that help us to generate deeper insights, new truths, interesting hidden signals and we started to practice that I was a solo consultant at that point. Alfred had had a startup which he was closing down which revolved around people asking for advice. It was a marketplace for advice called anyone. we started to use that on our own consultancy clients. It worked really well. And from there we started to ladder on more techniques to help us to understand attitudes and sentiments through different time spans. So the primary thing that we do is we laded on a technique that we invented called the triple tense techniques. So we'll ask a social circle question about three points in time. So asking about now, a point in time in the past and a point in time in the future.  What that allows us to do when you put that into field with respondents, people I think it's sets their mind to thinking about a question from a different angle. Obviously, they have to think about multiple different time spans, but the polarities and deltas that you get by asking that can be really really interesting and they uncover really fascinating contexts when you then overlay and project. If we see a 15% delta between the way that people answer this question today compared to the way that they believe that they would have answered it 5 years ago, then what contributes to that delta? And again, if there's another switch, whether it's up or down in when we project that question into the next three years or five years, then what's contributing to that?  And by filling in those gaps and those gray areas, we can get to really interesting hypotheses about where certain categories are heading, where every data point is headed. And one of the exciting things at the moment is that we're playing with techniques for how we visualize those data shifts. So how can we put that in a visual language that effectively creates a kind of visual archetype or an artifact for a data point that's heading to a specific point has come from a specific point. So those can be de increasing, they can they can feel like horizons where you get a generally rising tide of consumer sentiment going in a particular direction. and what we find kind of inspired by prediction markets is that we're not looking for accuracy in terms of being able to predict future events, but understanding what people believe are going to hap is going to happen helps us to contextualize and understand their actions today because people act their expectations of tomorrow rather than their experience of today.

Leonard Murphy: Mhm.

Sam Peskin: And so between those time spans we are able to generate a lot of granularity in the data. and when we are able to then plug in the expertise and experience and knowledge of the partners that we're working with, we can create very compelling and interesting narratives for where that data is coming from.

Leonard Murphy: It's interesting. I'm just thinking as we're talking that there are other examples of the application of this general approach u particularly in political polling but also betting markets as a whole right is a variation of this and the idea of the wisdom of the crowd. the challenge has been from a commercial standpoint of reaching scale. and I think part of that has been the heruristics of this approach versus your traditional approach are radically different.  So the application let's say so one of the companies that I had worked with and I introduced you to Brad Marsh shout out to Brad Marsh and the company that he was working with were brands found it challenging to adapt in a specific business case.

Sam Peskin: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: So let's say bases right a standard kind of approach for innovation and understanding adoption of future products those things become currency within an organization right that is the standard heruristic they compare to when something comes along and challenges that that can be really tough because they've built their entire approach around a very specific modality and  It doesn't mean that modality is wrong. It is just different. So what I like about what you're doing is applying it at the highest level what I would say is trend spotting. So, right, you're looking at future trends and then again, tell me if I'm wrong on how those trends may impact commercially a brand in that case. And that seems like a good backdoor into folks so that they don't have to challenge their existing approaches per se. but it's fit for purpose for a business issue that has been challenging which is predicting is did I capture that correctly and have you kind of found what the experience

Sam Peskin: Yeah, I think so. And a couple of points on that. I think we operate on the basis that data that doesn't travel within an organization may as well not exist. and we know that from our various experiences being within organizations and working with data providers and research partners, organizations, we have a philosophy with early studies that we will not challenge attempt to replace all of the data that organizations currently currently run on because's firstly I think we refer to what we do sometimes as experimental polling and…

Leonard Murphy: Mhm. Yep. Yep.

Sam Peskin: That itself as an implicit caveat. we're playing around and trying to find hidden signals in consumer sentiment and behavior that can be crucial data points and crucial signals for businesses to pay attention whether that guides this a certain decision or whether it becomes a signal that they want to track over time.  And so it's about I guess applying a certain amount of lateral thinking to the types of metrics that companies traditionally rely on to understand their performance, how they're being perceived, how they relate to other competitors in the market and in their category. I'm kind of on the way to answering your question, I think and then in terms of application, we apply the methodology effectively in three different ways.  So firstly there's exploration where we will be asked by a marketing team or a business unit to explore something from first principles that they're trying to get a better understanding of. And a lot of the time they're coming to us because they have a lot of data within the organization but some of that data isn't necessarily directly applicable to the specific problem they're trying to solve. I think that it's somewhat an advantage for us that we come from entrepreneurial and business backgrounds in that we've been in the business of solving complex business problems for our careers and we're kind of arraveistas to the research space but we apply that expertise and those techniques to getting to the questions that are going to help to unlock new opportunities and unlock actionable and interesting answers to that problem. that's exploration. Then on the other side there's testing.  I think in our careers, we found that often with testing an idea or an approach or a new kind of messaging or a platform that often you would be in the lap of the gods in terms of the subjectivity of respondents.

Sam Peskin: And you often to give you another problem that we encountered, you would only get one shot at figuring out what consumer response is to that particular initiative or platform etc.  And I guess the answer is firstly social circle is a great unlock for that instead of relying on the subjectivity and instinctive reactions of people, we ask people to imagine someone they know who is in the target audience for a specific brand or product messaging platform. And we ask them how they believe they would respond to that piece of com any of the other things. but also we work in a very iterative manner in that we will come from brief and test and test and test on small sample sizes. again kind of coming at every problem like curious children and…

Leonard Murphy: No worries.

Sam Peskin: Being prepared to ask the most fundamental questions that don't get asked because people they assume that they know the answers to them and in that is kind of how sorry about that that was just a I silence my phone but it managed to get through in any case from my computer so that's testing we really take a first principles approach to  everything that we do and the way that we apply the methodology to be most effective. also innovation, we're getting a lot of requests for going into innovation processes at the very beginning and trying to understand how people perceive or conceive a product is targeted to and whether they believe that it's a product for them. By doing that from a number of different angles, we can spot emerging gaps in where portfolio, gaps in a specific product category. identify the opportunity and then working again with surveys and consumer research to figure out what the best way to execute on that gap is.

Leonard Murphy: So in the business you're effectively structured as a strategic consultancy built around a specific tool, rather than know when you first sent the report I thought you're productizing trans identification but as we're talking more it sounds like it is far more customized and strategically focused than just having another forecasting product out there. Is that accurate? Yep. Yep.

Sam Peskin: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that's true. it's interesting because Alfred and I have this conversation and debate a lot of the time. I guess we positioned ourselves as a consultancy initially. really we kind of see ourselves as a startup.  We're implementing technology and through all of our processes to figure out ways that we can be sharper, leaner. I mean AI has been great for us because we haven't had to retrofit anything that we do to build AI into it. We've kind of built it as build the business with AI as part of the foundations. But I say that we think of ourselves as a startup because we're trying to find smart and often technologically enabled ways to tackle the problems that we see in our own processes and tackle and to execute as best we can on the opportunity that we saw in the market.

Leonard Murphy: Mhm. Yeah. So, let's talk about the AI thing for a second. specifically So, there's a lot of woo to this topic, potentially there's less place we can go and at the core I would say my current perspective is that this approach works because of let's call it intuition for lack of a better term right is which I consider to be a unique human attribute tied to our consciousness field right you can go all types of places with that but that's just kind of my general take that's for smarter people than me to unpack

Sam Peskin: Me too.

Leonard Murphy: But so that brings up an interesting question though because there's lots of discussion around synthetic sample and personas and those are things that AI is good at based upon the inputs. have you tested building personas off of your data? Because at this point you've amassed a fairly large normative data set to train an AI persona to go through the same approach to try and predict specific outcomes so what does that look like

Sam Peskin: Mhm. One thing is it's so I can answer that question in a couple of different ways. Yes, we have experimented with it and with synthetic audience samples and…

Leonard Murphy: Okay, sure.

Sam Peskin: We tend to use them as benchmarks. So we can take a client problem, create a survey, and it's great to test it on one of our synthetic samples to see where it lands, but we would never rely on that as the final answer. I think it's interesting to see where I AI gets to and a lot of the time it can be more accurate on specific metrics like AI is likely to get an awareness metric pretty bang on whereas human beings when they're talking about the perceptions of others are likely to underestimate…

Leonard Murphy: Mhm. Sure.

Sam Peskin: How aware the market is of a specific brand.  There are brands, let's say, in the US that probably have 97% awareness ratings and people will never estimate it at that high.  Once you get down to the deeper nuances and the naughty psychological questions that we're trying to untangle, AI can have very interesting lateral approaches to those problems, but is never going to get close to the nuance and understanding that we get from a really high quality human sample. using the two alongside each other and being able to triage them and get an average out of both of them is useful. it keeps us honest and also keeps us curious and we play with it. But for us AI…

Leonard Murphy: Mhm. Okay.

Sam Peskin: Especially given that the end point for us is always quant, we often ended qual with open-ended fundamental questions to see how people will talk about a specific subject and are always prepared to be surprised by what's coming up. The output eventually is always quant.  Once we have a quant data set, the analysis that we're able to do with AI is extremely compelling, especially when you think about an answer that's projected into the future. When we put that in and ask AI to analyze what is projected into the future and what people's concerns, dreams about the next three years might be based on. We can get not just an estimation of what's coming to play there, but also a potent potentially more longitudinal data points on how that data point might shift over the next three years even on a monthly basis.

Leonard Murphy: Sure.

Sam Peskin: So that's really interesting.

Leonard Murphy: I get that. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.

Sam Peskin: And then in the front end, we are able to use AI to get pretty close to what's a good enough quality survey for us to start sending into testing. But again, we will work iteratively with that looking at the results and analyzing and the human brain comes in into play a lot more when we're trying to think of the most creative angles to come at a question from and how we're going to get to hidden signals and new answers. AI is helpful, but it doesn't get us all the way there.

Leonard Murphy: I think it's fascinating and…and I love that when entrepreneurs come in from outside, right, we're talking like the core ideas that you've been talking about have been naughty issues that many people have taken a run with various levels of success for many years. but the way that you've approached it from your background and kind of reverse engineered that plus now as you said not having to kind of retrofit new tools like AI, but to be able to integrate that in so it's an augmentation. I just love that. I think that's fantastic and should be inspiring to many folks to think about this era of reinvention. and I think if you agree with me your approach was not to come in and say this sucks and we can do it better. It's simply to say there's a great foundation here let's see what we can do to refine it and unlock even more value out of some of these tools that have just been kind of sitting here. Is that pretty fair assessment?

Sam Peskin: 100%. Yeah. I think, it's funny because when I listen to myself speaking to you, I'm sort of in the back of my mind thinking are these things that are completely obvious to anyone that might be much deeper in the research industry than I am? and probably are thinking about the same things. I just don't know.  and we are learning every day about the industry that we've come into. I'm actually at IAX in DC next week. I'm really looking forward to meeting some folks and talking to them about the kinds of problems that they're trying to tackle. I think that we've come at it from a business perspective, an entrepreneurial perspective and a deeply curious mindset of asking the right questions in order to get to better questions. and starting from first principles with every question that we pose ourselves and every question we're posed on a client project. and that relates to the eventual questions but also questions challenges around around process and RM product and how it's built and how it can be most impactful and most effective for the partners and organizations that we're working with. I think both Alfred and I take that approach to life and business. And so for us the most fun is when we take who we are and apply it in a field that we come into with absolutely no idea about.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Peskin: And it continues to be fun and a learning experience every day. but as we grow we're paying a lot of attention to what's happening in the wider research industry and trying to reach out to people and have the discussions that are going to help us to feel like we belong here.

Leonard Murphy: I think you definitely belong here. So, that's why we're having this conversation, I for the audience, after Sam reached out on LinkedIn, we actually had several false starts to get this interview done because the gods of the internet were frowning on us every time we tried. So through this conversation that we've had to get to here, obviously I'm a fan of what you're doing. and I think that it's the type of creativity and ingenuity that we need because we are in disruptive times. So for variety at every level, everything is just kind of weird and different and changing and that's just okay.  that's great or not depending upon your perspective but it creates opportunity. And I think that so often we get in any industry…

Sam Peskin: Mhm.

Leonard Murphy: But certainly in the research industry we get caught up in our own tunnel vision or myopia on whether it's an orthodoxy really of this is how you do this and this specific thing right whether it's methodology or a business issue this is how you do pricing this is how you do you ad test, etc. That does not mean that's all great. It's worked really well. but it doesn't mean it's the ultimate destination. And so I love when folks like you come in and just kind of poke holes with the appropriate level, and this is what I get from you, of humility, kind of recognizing hey, we stand on the shoulders of giants, right? There's lots of information here and for us to build off of, but humility doesn't need to equal acceptance, when we have ideas that can challenge the status quo and make things better, then having that bravery to go after that is…

Sam Peskin: Thanks.

Leonard Murphy: How everything moves forward. so I'd love what you guys are doing. of how other companies take similar approaches. I want to be conscious of your time and as we have proven through other conversations and I can go off on tangents and chat because it's just a lot of fun. Or other entrepreneurs that are listening, kind of share your lessons that you have learned that up to date that you'd want to pass on to kind of give them warnings, inspiration, whatever the case may be.

Sam Peskin: I think that I mean, I've probably said this word at least four or five times in this conversation, but curiosity is the lifeblood of what we do. I think it's also the northstar of how we hire and the people that we want to have around us in our business and also the people that we work with in partnership. we look for people who will never stop asking why and that's kind of how we're wired.  I think on top of that, from my own personal experience is that mentors are a shortcut to wisdom.  And the quicker you can find the appropriate mentors and to really find the people that fit the kind of shape that you need and have variety, those are the people that I rely upon to help cover over the gaps in my knowledge and to help in inspire me thinking about direct. I mean it's like you said something just before about entrenched ways of thinking and…

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Sam Peskin: And thinking about things not necessarily knowing what the outcome of destination is. That's incredibly helpful.  A lot of the time you need people to channel you sometimes to narrow your focus, but also others who are going to widen it.  Because even in our journey of trying to figure out who we are and what we do and all of the most exciting applications of what we do, sometimes you go to narrow and someone can find someone with more experience from you than you from a parallel industry or knowledge set will take you in a different direction. So older, more experienced mentors have been crucial to me and I would say I wish that I had them earlier in my career. I had a few but now I'd say I have a great set really interesting people that I can talk to all the time. and I would take the same attitude to reading. I studied literature at university and wish that I'd taken more advantage of the time that I had to sit and read. and now I mean I have two young kids. I ek out time to be alone and to read all the time. But I think being intentional about your attitude to what you read is super important to read incredibly broadly and to find rabbit holes to go down at the appropriate times.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. those are important ones.

Sam Peskin: But I read a lot of history. History is crucial to the way that I see but as one of my mentors who's a barristister in the UK says to me the books are the thing and you can never forget the thing. and those are the mentors that you can always have on your bookshelf. and so yeah mentors and reading mentors reading and curiosity I guess. Not if anyone were to ask me what my lessons are. But yeah, I remember Lenny, you asked me about an application of the methodology or a concrete case of when it's come up which I didn't manage to answer. and so I'll give you an answer as a finishing thing. But we were working with a large challenger brand in the performance space.  This was right at the beginning when we had started to test the future perfect methodology and the triple tense technique. But we were asking the most fundamental first principles questions about why people run. and we eventually got to a quant question and the right options where people were unsurprisingly people's primary motivation for running was their physical health. this was in 2023. But we saw that in the three-year period from now until 2027…

Leonard Murphy: That's it.

Sam Peskin: This 2026 27, mental health had started to replace physical health as a primary driver. This was two years ago. and we can see that in the market now and you can see that with the way that the challenger brands are positioning themselves against the legacy brands in terms of holistic wellness versus that harder performance-based messaging and starting to incredibly successful. it was really one of those first moments when we started to get extremely excited about the potential for the methodology because we saw it and believed it to be true but couldn't believe that it was actually crystallizing and materializing in the data. and so that was kind of liftoff for us. when it really began. So, I just wanted to in case anyone thought that everything was too theoretical and…

Leonard Murphy: That's great.

Sam Peskin: And ephemeral and that I might be selling snake oil. That was an example that I realized I hadn't come to giving you yet.  Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: That's fantastic. again, I think that for people who doubt, the example of the French whale, is a fairly concrete example, and this methodology has proven itself in polling time and time again. there's a pollster here in the US, and I just can't think of the name, and I apologize for that, for years has used this methodology and was incredibly accurate. They were dismissed by kind of the mainstream approaches at their peril because they kept getting it wrong and he kept getting it right. so I think it's not snake oil. widening that lens to look at trends and try and understand very dynamic just changing humanity at this point, I think there are so many inputs that have a longtail effect that we are just beginning to even get glimmers of. yes,…

Sam Peskin: Yeah. And especially at the moment, we're in a very volatile time when there's a lot of sectors where prediction accuracy is starting to become more missionritical than ever and…

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Sam Peskin: We're starting to see a lot of demand from those sectors. So, financial services, politics, and so I guess getting back to the heartland of where techniques like the ones we're using and prediction markets were born out of to be…

Leonard Murphy: Mhm. Yeah.

Sam Peskin: Where we can gravitating back towards. Again, we are not 20 years in the tooth political pollsters, but we're really excited to be using the methodology in those spaces and starting to get to grips with the data that will give us answers to the really big important questions about society and where we're headed at the moment. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Even more, it's one thing to predict an outcome. but to understand, why that outcome that to me that is far more important. I think I'm good I suck at predicting timing.

Sam Peskin: Completely agree for another session.

Leonard Murphy: I'm pretty good at predicting events. I'm bad at predicting the timing. but the fascinating part is through my own process of trying to understand What in when you mentioned history, right, of looking at that, to understand how we got here, I think is far more important than where the destination is itself. anyway, we could go off on all places, Sam. Yeah, absolutely. this all just is fascinating. I will say this and listeners you can think that I'm weird as whatever but there is something that I am picking up in the zeitgeist right now around how we are thinking about human consciousness and this is part of that whatever we call it right that sounds like a high flutin term but how we as humans share and exchange information unconsciously there's a lot happening about that right now and  really interesting and I think that we're heading towards in a time where approaches like yours to try and understand how we as humans intake output information both passively actively and how that shapes the course of global events. We're on a threshold of doing some just really cool stuff to understand that and I think it's going to be radically different than the perception we have had up to date on how things are going. So that gets my geek buttons going in all types of ways and it's a fascinating concept. Tools like yours are part of that journey that I see happening. So anyway, there we go. yeah,…

Sam Peskin: That's great to hear, Lenny. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Leonard Murphy: No problem. Sam, where can people find you?

Sam Peskin: You can email me at samarststudies.com. If you go to earlystudies.com, you will find quite a mysterious website just where you can flick through a whole bunch of the interesting questions that we've asked in our time on Earth so far. I'm on LinkedIn, Sam Peskin. and please do reach out. I'm always willing to up for connecting with minded people and people in the industry. So yeah, come at me. Thank you.

Leonard Murphy: Great. Come at me. All The challenge accepted by somebody, I'm sure. Sam, thanks for taking the time. really appreciate it. and audience, thank you for your time. without that Sam and I wouldn't have done this. So we appreciate the opportunity to bring this to you. Thanks to our sponsors, our producers, everybody who works behind the scenes to make this happen. And that's it for this edition of the CEO Series. And we'll be back again real soon, everybody. Take care. Bye-bye.