The Infrastructure Shift: Why Everyone's Buying Data Companies

Check out the full episode below! Enjoy The Exchange? Don't forget to tune in live Friday at 12 pm EST on the Greenbook LinkedIn and Youtube Channel!

Big moves are reshaping how brands access and use data. Publicis bought LiveRamp for $2.2B to solve identity and attribution across platforms. Qualtrics paid $6.75B for healthcare data specialist Press Ganey Forsta. A retail sensor startup raised $170M to track what actually happens on store shelves. Meanwhile, the supplier world is evolving from selling surveys to building data infrastructure, synthetic respondents need quality standards, and quantum computing could upend everything we know about security.

Plus: why Google's new 3D world-building tool matters, what consumer AI backlash means for research, and why good moderators still beat algorithms.

Many thanks to our producer, Karley Dartouzos. 

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Transcript

Lenny Murphy: And we're live. Happy Friday, everybody. And I've been so excited for this. So welcome, Sarah.

Sarah Snudden: Hello. I'm excited too, Lenny.

Lenny Murphy: It's so you're just one of my favorite people in the world. And we'll talk a little more about that. But I know you, our listeners to their great dysfortune may not know you.

Sarah Snudden: So why don't you just introduce yourself real quick? Sure. I'm a career curious strategic person who, somewhere in my colorful 20s, realized you could get paid a nice salary by being curious about corporations. So I've spent most of my side on the client brand building world starting. Well, my earliest start where I was discovered was Pillsbury in the General Mills world now.

Lenny Murphy: And then Clorox. I spent a little time at Quaker pre-Pepsi.

Sarah Snudden: I have this tendency to get outright right as the merger is going down. I always say it's kind of like being at a party when the cops show up. You kind of want to find your backdoor. But I went from Clorox to seventh generation, which took me on the road last traveled to Vermont. And then I've really spent the recent chapter in coffee at Keurig and Green Mountain. A brief stint on the supplier side, including at AYTM, which was a great place to be. And then my coffee world called me back. The band was getting back together. And as that's kind of consolidated massively with the news of GlobalCoffee.co, you know, the name's still TBD, the merger with Keurig and JDE Peets.

Lenny Murphy: I am Free Range and Freelance.

Sarah Snudden: But I'd like to find a supplier side team to join, I think, is the vision I'm putting out there.

Lenny Murphy: There you go.

Sarah Snudden: Plug.

Lenny Murphy: And I will say, and I'll say, if the guys, if you can get Sarah, you should get Sarah. She's awesome. I mean, we've had the privilege of working together on projects and all types of stuff. And it's been fantastic. I guess we should just tell the story real quick. Then we met 10-12 years ago?

Sarah Snudden: Yes.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. But quickly discovered, and I remember us talking, we were sitting at the Waffle House in Atlanta outside Georgetown.

Sarah Snudden: It was after IX had gone down. I wasn't sure how I scored this amazing moment with Lenny. Like he's, you know, like the sweat of the show is still on his brow, and we're plowing through some hash browns and eggs.

Lenny Murphy: And discovered that we both. Lived in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, in the early 80s.

Sarah Snudden: The center of the universe, unknown to many people.

Lenny Murphy: Yes. And we're hanging out on a Friday night at Skateland.

Sarah Snudden: London Hill Skate Land.

Lenny Murphy: Because it was the only thing to do on a Friday night in the early 80s in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. So we probably were like ships passing in the night. Never met that we know of that we didn't recall that.

Sarah Snudden: I'm sure I was the one like, slowly slipping, sipping my slushy because my skating was, you know, not fully optimized.

Lenny Murphy: I was holding on to the wall and trying to look like I was not, you know, an idiot. But the, so it's just, it's just funny we have to say that, that we have. We have history that we didn't even know we had until we had history and mystery. All right. Well, it's very cool. Thank you for taking the time today. I'm sorry. I missed you at IIEX.

Sarah Snudden: It was a great show. A lot packed into that space, as you know. I was super excited by the innovation competition this year. It was a really nice range of contestants and finalists. I was lucky to get to talk to them ahead of time and get a little, you know, PR. I love the innovation competition and I'm excited. You're going to have another one coming up.

Lenny Murphy: Another more, more. Good bigger parts, faster, more. Yes, good plug. Thank you, Karley. Yeah, you know, we used to just do one a year. But now we decided, you know. Hey we're gonna do it every event so ix europe which is coming up which if you have not registered yet uh you should register because uh that's going to be an amazing event and uh so that's uh that's next month um and then we also have uh I ex West coming up a new event very tech centric even more so than than usual coming up in October So there will be two more rounds of the competition happening this year.

Sarah Snudden: That's awesome. There's a lot of change and a lot of new players. As someone who had the luck of being at the first IIEX in Philly and living through the Atlanta and the Austin phase, I'm excited for what's next. You know, there are phases in any industry where change comes. Hotter and faster. And we're definitely in one right now. I remember when automation came out, and it was all, everyone was like, you know, we've got automation. And as a client-side person, I've, you know, had to consistently remind people: I'm not sitting at my desk thinking, you know what I wish I could do? Automation. I've got a mountain of work and I'm trying, sure, if I could automate it, great, but what I need is concept test results or ad test results. And I'm not pining for automation. And I don't think people are exactly pining for AI, but it's an even bigger wave than automation was because it's coming from your personal life and the life and culture and it's everywhere all at once.

Lenny Murphy: Yep. Yes. And systemically, structurally, it's taken up at every level, which is probably a segue. Let's get into some of the news. As always, there was so much we could have chosen. We're trying to be disciplined and condense it down to just the most important ones. Synthesis man Lenny it's one of the hardest muscles to keep sharp I tell you it really is especially when there's so much um but there were there were a couple uh two particularly big things this week let's start the top level with uh kind of funding them a because follow the money is always I found to be indicative of uh where the puck is going um publicist acquiring live ramp uh big deal because publicist it might take uh has always kind of functioned as a holding company. But when you're buying LiveRamp, which is, for those not familiar, kind of a central marketplace for identity resolution within, both within research and in ad tech. It is a central node of that entire industry. You got Poolis by buying them. That's not a consolidation play. That's an integration play. Unlocking the value of data across their businesses was my read. And it was $2.2 billion. So in cash, in cash. So I thought that was just interesting to see how that side of the world is also trying to consolidate, building data moats, building infrastructure to kind of own workflows fundamentally. All right. This is now as a client, and you kind of hinted at this earlier. Would you have paid attention to that? Would that have been relevant to you, you know, oh, now this execution phase, right? The activation and execution phase is now running through the same pipes through one company. Would you care?

Sarah Snudden: Well, so I've always been, you know, the majority of my career has been client-side and very close to the marketing team, like the red-headed stepchild of the marketing team. Literally, right, right. And so, and increasingly, as time's gone on, I feel like the job of insights, or one of the many jobs of insights, is making sure you're really generating insightful marketers and the marketing they make. You know, it all flows back. So you do pay attention to integrations. On the client side, you're sometimes kind of locked and loaded with an agency. So you're not maybe looking at the news as much. But in terms of the work that's happening so much now, brands are being discovered on the scroll increasingly. And, you know, it's a really big shift from the old, we've got TV. And print and billboards, or whatever, you know, it was, and we've got three major networks, and you know, it's not at all like that anymore. And so, putting those pieces together, I think everyone kind of has a lot of sensors out and trying to find the signal. But following these kinds of things is definitely a more sure bet on some of the signals you get. Um, I think. One of the pieces that's shifting also is e-comm. Increasingly, you're doing both DDC and your Amazon platform, and you know, pulling it all together and thinking about how to do ROAS and think about attribution. It's a big enabler. Yeah, and I think the integration of data sets was really interesting to me about this one. Is the one that can go all the way into your CRM or pull in reviews or pull in other pieces. And we'll hit this again when we get to Bolt's news. But I feel like that integration really helps because you're kind of looking for the emotional heat in that unstructured data and where those opportunities are, as well as the sales piece that's happening.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah. So that's great. Wonderful perspective to share, right? That from you, it's what I'm here for you is like, it's all about this is interesting as it benefits impact, which is probably the lens that we always need to keep in mind, right?

Sarah Snudden: Yeah, they already had Epsilon, which I feel is more like the identity resolution. And this feels to me more like an integrationist play, like it's, it's taking all the pieces. It's a put together kind of maneuver, I think. Is the way I took it. Yeah.

Lenny Murphy: So I'm grinning because you, if I don't have to pay attention in the comments, but Matt Valley, and hello, Matt. Best guest host ever. Yes. Although, yeah, we have wonderful guest hosts all the time.

Sarah Snudden: True, true. And I see Susan in the comments. Another, yes. Yes.

Lenny Murphy: Although she's probably relieved didn't have to deal with me this week. It's like, let's Sarah deal with Lenny.

Sarah Snudden: Sometimes you have to share the wealth or pass the buck, either way.

Lenny Murphy: I passed the buck. I think that's the way I do it. All right. So related note, the other big deal. Qualtrics, right? So this was percolating out there. And then there was the news a little while back that the funders were like, I don't know. And then obviously they resolved the funding issue. Qualtrics acquired Prescani for $6.75 billion. I have always read that as incredibly smart by focusing on a vertical with data assets. Building the moat around the data, not so much around the data collection. What do you think? What did you see with that?

Sarah Snudden: Yeah. One of the things that definitely comes through loud and clear on the listening tour work that I've been doing, talking to the people I know and just listening, what's kind of doing insights on our own insights industry, if you will. Healthcare has definitely got a different vibe and a different dance floor beat right now than like CPG or you know, banking's got a pretty hearty pulse as it often does. And healthcare has got a lot happening and a lot happening fast. And so I hope it all comes together well. There's a lot that could be done in terms of patient experience and all of the thoughtful ways that healthcare could come together. Plenty of opportunities, maybe that's the way to say it. So, hopefully, more integrated tools will help you.

Lenny Murphy: Well, it's kind of the MA side. I get why the investors put a little bit of a halt on that originally thinking, oh, this is another SaaS play. Yeah. And SAS is under. A lot of pressure right now from a business model standpoint because of AI. I think they got over that and realized, oh, wait, no, this is a data play. This is a vertically aligned data play. And that's a different evaluation criteria, right? In terms of potential upside and growth, et cetera, et cetera, to be the dominant player in a vertical like healthcare data. That's a big deal. And that's, you get over the transformational costs on the SNAS model into something that looks a whole lot different. And to your point, there's other categories like that, right? That is the category of specialization. Now, interestingly, this radar was not on my radar. But on the button. But so 170 million Series B, mates in the unicorn. Billion, over a billion-dollar valuation. But RFID sensors on physical inventory in retail, that's behavioral data, right? They're tracking behavioral data. There's obviously a supply chain component to that. But in this world, my read on that is like, this isn't just about supply chain optimization. This is about brands understanding what's happening. In the place they have the least amount of visibility at the shelf in the store and how products are moving, who's buying them. So, yeah, they can manage the logistical components of supply chain management, but capturing a lot more with what's happening in the store. And we get back to the idea of data, right? That's my guess on why they got that. Massive valuation was not just about, oh, this is cool to help the coffee company know we need to, you know, this is how many bags were bought at Walmart this week, but more data around where it's positioned, potentially who is buying it, et cetera, et cetera. And I saw it as another data silo or another data moat. What do you think?

Sarah Snudden: Think um well I first I would say don't underestimate the utter I think we can say this on the our shit show that operations you know like has to deal with um you know I think we all wish that like you know we know the post the pandemic world order was was a major disruption but when it didn't just pop back like in a tea and coffee business in through that whole phase and it it remains a challenge. And you add tariffs and trade angles and all of it. So there's, you know, the part where if you could get into the store, get from the warehouse to the store with more insightful business oomph and not have sort of the bad Wi-Fi of where's my stuff, you know, that will be really amazing. The interaction between people and the geo-fenced kind of reality and what's on the shelf seems like an interesting eventual play. But even thinking back on the reality of packaging and managing, you'd have to be the kind of product where you could get in and do something about it, but understanding those holes in the shelf, if you've ever done the intense packaging test. And I got to spend time in the Clemson packaging lab where they were looking at out-of-stocks and how your eyes track across the void. You know, there may be some really block and tackle applications as well as the, you know, super sensor world. But my behavioral data is absolutely where it's at right now, I think, in a world where AI is also coming at us from the, you know, is this respondent who they say they are? I'm excited.

Lenny Murphy: Right there with you. Right. I agree. So would you agree with this aspect? We'll move on to products that on this big kind of follow the money. I read all of this is about unlocking the utility of data, that's the baseline common thread through here. All three of these, they're fundamentally data plays. In a variety to address a variety of business issues and the potential to unlock the value of that data.

Sarah Snudden: Yeah. And if you're the brick and mortar vendor, like if you're the Walmart or the target, it also gives you a lot more power to say, Look, here's who's going off the shelf, you're voted off the island. You know, that whole play is, you know, becomes a lot more real, you know, and it's one more way they can kind of optimize their hand in a world where they've been playing against digital increasingly.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah, let's shift to uh some of the new product launches. Um the and there's a variation on a theme here. Uh, you mentioned Bolt. You want to talk about that?

Sarah Snudden: Yeah, I'm super excited about this one, um, because I think Bolt has such a thoughtful take on the insights space and has that like true people who were doing the jobs and invented the thing that they wish they had from the marketing and insights standpoint. And I got into social listening really early. In the Bay Area in the early aughts when it was starting to come through, and we were using it for innovation at Clorox. This whole kind of signal sensing that they're doing and pulling in these other bits with the platform, I think is really a cool integration. And I like that they're getting the kind of pieces together in the way that they're doing it. What do you think?

Lenny Murphy: Yeah. The workflow rather than kind of a kludgey bolt on, no pun intended, of things, right? It seems to be very purpose-built of, well, there's no reason for us to have to switch between quantum qual from a platform standpoint or social listening or whatever. Let's integrate that. Let's make it easy, which, you know, AI does. And I don't read this as an AI wrapper. I read this as really an agentic. Interface that unlocks utility to manage the research process from one platform. And I mean, you this has been, I was a big fan of GMI back in the day, right? And integrated sample data collection, quantum qual, Susan, shout out. So this idea of having one platform, you know, to one range rule of all is not new. But it's never worked really well from a workflow standpoint. It's always been just kind of kluchy. And I have not looked at the bulk platform yet, but my bet is that it's the same kloochie that it's probably a pretty seamless process.

Sarah Snudden: And I applaud that. And it's a really fantastic example of talking more about the job you're doing. And absolutely, AI is involved in that, but it's not just like, bolt AI, AI, AI. You know, it's not, it's not that. It's like, oh, it's signal scanning, it's pattern detecting, it's helping you generate innovation. Like, all of that is exactly what I meant when it's like, those are real jobs that a client-side person is like, oh, yeah, I need those things. Um, I also want to give Bolt a shout-out and a pitch in terms of thinking about your supplier side. Sometimes you have a really dynamic client that will present with you at a conference. But Bolt did one at IIX that I thought was really a best in-class example of taking a theme, which in this case was search, and just showing how search has changed over time. And it wasn't presented with a client, but it was meaningful content. I walked away, you know, with the clear, like, oh, you search differently when you need different amounts of confidence. And I was like, that's so obvious, but it also is one of those things where you're like, oh, now that I say it that way, you know, so is peanut butter and chocolate, but they weren't always together. And I thought there was such a nice, you know, secondary thing that that talk did that it was showing, not telling, the tools. And so if you're a supplier listening to this and thinking about how do you get your message out, finding that theme or that maybe it's a do-gooder cause or like a cultural change and really like showing how you use your tool to do it, but it's not about the tool, it's about what you discovered. It was great.

Lenny Murphy: Chef's kiss. All right, Matt, that is a bolt. I think you need to add Sarah onto your Christmas card list at the very least. This KSR, so this was interesting coming from a supplier establishing the Echo Index for Synthetic Data Governance. Now, that was. And that was really the compelling piece here that jumped out of like, okay, here we are now. So the synthetic is what, two, three years old, if that, right? One of the dominant emerging methods. And there needs to be a governance layer. There needs to be to be able to identify, kind of separate the weight from the chaff and, you know, some quality metrics. And compare it to human responses, basically a benchmarking model. So I thought this was much needed. We've played with the same idea of Green Book, right? Which we're not getting into any of those things, but the association, et cetera, et cetera. It was cool to see a supplier come out and say, look, we want to be an independent arbiter and objective just to evaluate.

Sarah Snudden: These things establish a framework so buyers uh can figure out what's uh what's good and what's not so what again from your perspective were there other times in the uh in in the career that you've like I really wish I could have known if that was snake oil or not uh and standards to compare to I'm, you know, the early days when I was kind of temping my way into insights and finding my way into grad school, you know, was kind of the very end of the, oh, you can't do surveys online, you know, kind of phase. So I do think the quality checks are key in a lot of the modeling world, when you're really in the advanced quantitative stuff and you're trying to forecast or predict, you've got holdout samples that you can compare to but in this space um guardrails of just sort of what's in and what's out are are I think really important yeah I think the challenge will be here that the um we've seen this in other uh iso certification etc etc there's I remember I I was asked to speak at smar um in Atlanta gosh I don't know know.

Lenny Murphy: The one and only time they ever asked me to speak at the event, probably because of the statement. Better beware. Well, yeah. Well, they asked, would Google surveys ever join SMART? It's like, no, why the hell would they ever join any trade association? Why would they ever open their kimono to somebody else and lose competitive advantage?

Sarah Snudden: And so there's that tension I think that's interesting that need a good housekeeping seal of approval we need some standards etc etc but from a supplier standpoint I'd be thinking twice about this of like you're putting me into a framework this way commoditizes me as a supplier you're you don't want to be evaluated the same way Although I'd say the counterpoint example might be something like Gartner, where you've got like an organization that's kind of taking in all the players and kind of helping people think about where they stack up or how they fall in the quadrants or whatever. And on the client side, as you're trying to navigate a world where agencies or suppliers are evolving and changing really fast, or you're trying to. Yourself on marketing mix models or whatever it is that you're trying to understand. There's definitely, it's almost more like this one has more of a guardrails built in, but there's sort of like the evaluation and kind of comparison that happens with something like a Kantar type plan gives you that. Sense of like who's moving in what direction. And I think that can, it's almost like a media function in a way, which is not how I read the KSR, but it has that element as well.

Lenny Murphy: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Snudden: It's at least news you can use at a minimum.

Lenny Murphy: So, right, yeah, right, right. The sit in in Illumina if you would listen to some of our previous. Once when Synth announced a few weeks ago they were going to be taken private. And through that, this conversation that they were shifting away from the sample supplier business into the data business, particularly around media measurement. And here was another announcement that they just solidified that here's a panel company, for all intents and purposes, not panel, but a sample supplier. Shifting that model away from the transaction of the survey into the data stream, into the infrastructure. Do you see the same thing?

Sarah Snudden: Yeah, this one kind of feels like the money and the mouth, the talk and the walk kind of coming together.

Lenny Murphy: Right.

Sarah Snudden: Yeah. And it is a really important job. Ask someone who, who in my last, you know, role at JDE Pete's, I had to think about mixed modeling in a total cloud-based space, being able to do that well in a world where brands are, like I said, increasingly found online and trying to work through those pieces, it's important for sure.

Lenny Murphy: 100%. Let's talk about some of this big tech stuff. And these were all just interesting, but let's start with what I thought. What was interesting was the government committing 2 billion, the US government, committing 2 billion to quantum computing. Here's AI, AI, AI. And now it's like, oh, no, let's talk about quantum, which sounds really geeky, but what my takeaway is, my understanding of quantum computing, which is very limited because it's such a complex and weird thing. But in terms of privacy, encryption, speed, you know, that's the next leap. Obviously, putting $2 billion into building out that infrastructure, which sort of affects data. And it deals with data in such a radically different way from a processing standpoint. So as we think we're starting to get our hands around, you know, AI and the infrastructure and tokens and all of that good stuff. Uh, probably in the next two to three years. Well, we're gonna have to be thinking about a whole different level of infrastructure that computes in ways we can barely comprehend. Um, so I was just like, all right, here we go. Some, yeah, the next wave is arriving already.

Sarah Snudden: Um, what'd you think? Yeah, so quantum really, I can also like, you know, I'm superficial at best, but I was lucky to be at the front end of an innovation show last year presenting with Orchard. Thanks, thanks, Orchard. And there was a really, that show is like a spa for nerds. Like, it brings in, like, you know, Wozniak, like, called in and gave a talk, like, it had. All sorts of things that stretch your imagination out, and you've got your RD players and your other people there. But they had someone come in and talk about quantum. And Lenny, one of the things that helped me kind of think about it was like, imagine like just something simple, like a license plate, and you've got the you know number of spaces there. And right now, you've got all the letters or the things on the keyboard that you can put in, and quantum's like, now, instead of that limited set of characters, imagine like the infinite number of points on a sphere, and they can all be in a space on that license plate. And I don't know how it made it a lot more accessible to me. As part of my listening tour, I've also talked to some of my friends who are in government. And obviously, I won't give anything away, but I actually had. The chat with someone who was working in AI for the government in a really big leadership way. And I started asking them about quantum just because I was curious how the jumps would go. And they said, because I was thinking about it, I framed my question as like the great password meltdown is coming, like the moment of, the quantum that cracks all of our passwords all at once, and how, as the government, are you thinking about that? And they were like, Hey, you have to remember that it's not just one actor coming, it's the minute you have that happen, it's all the quant, you know, all the it's it's almost like um. Day to arms race, not to be dramatic, but it is.

Lenny Murphy: Absolutely, it is. Yes. Yeah. And that's what all this, that's, yeah. I saw a commentary: why is the U.S. Investing in this technology? Because we always have, because it's always about competitive advantage. Always, what is the steam engine to quantum computers, right? Yeah. It's always about. Competitive advantage. Business, government, individual, it doesn't matter. It's the same dynamics. They just get to print the money to be able to put into the stuff.

Sarah Snudden: Yeah. And in a world where data is getting increasingly more valuable and we're tuning into the value of data in different ways, the kind of protection you put around that data is to infinity and beyond importance.

Lenny Murphy: I want to call it real quick before we get into the meta, because I think we will probably cover that really quickly. Matt made a point that Bolt and KSNR are interesting because they're meeting researchers where they are. Feels immediately intuitive and relevant for those doing the work. Great point, Matt. I think that is, it's more pragmatic. We can wrap our arms around versus. Quantum yeah we're off in the ether on that um the uh the you know it's almost old hat now to talk about you know oh such such company laid off a you know huge chunk of staff because of ai um the meta uh they laid off a bunch of people but but was I thought was interesting is they reassigned 7 000 workers to focus on ai but that doesn't tell the whole story. You dive in, it's like they're building their entire organizational structure around these AI workflows. And that's a pretty big ballsy bet for a company the size of Meta to restructure the organization. I mean, yeah, they're a tech company, but still, that's, you know, they are. They're drinking their own Kool-Aid. They are transforming everything about that business to be aligned to leveraging these tools. And I thought that was a pretty compelling data point. Did you get something out of that?

Sarah Snudden: I don't, I honestly don't know if I, I mean, it's a big bet, you know, and it's a big change, but in terms of on the ballsiness scale, it also feels kind of intuitive or strategic. I, I, I can't, it, it didn't. Have a lot of shock and awe in a world where there's maybe our benchmark for shock and awe is higher.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. My tolerance for ontological shock is now pretty high. Like, what are you going to tell me? Nothing surprises me anymore. So anyway, Google, this was, I thought it was just indicative. Just the pace change, right? And they're new that Google IO, the 3.5 flash, generic workflows, but even more, so all that good stuff, right? They're doing everything you would expect. But what they also showed here on Omni, did you see, did you see the video for that?

Sarah Snudden: I haven't seen that yet. No, describe it.

Lenny Murphy: So you take any image, fully 3D rendered, hyper-realistic and interactive. And extendable. Like they've taken Google Maps and made that as an engine that you can go anywhere in the world and create an interactive environment from Google Maps. You can take any image and make it interactive. And, you know, we'll get on this whole next topic: this issues around AI, but the pure thing about the geekiness of that I just look at it and say that's you know this may be that's just freaking cool right it's just cool the potential to unlock new commercials new you know audience engagement new uh new customer uh new marketing etc etc and just getting easier and easier and easier and these technology companies just deploying the raw power to unlock those options. Maybe it's dehumanizing us. I don't know, but uh, but it's still freaking cool. Um, so that was my take of like, it's like they have the, and they're leading with this cool stuff, the Omni, while they're also what the real deal is, they're just trying to take over the entire workflow within the business, right? Yeah, um, yeah, uh, but they got some cool hooks out there that are unique.

Sarah Snudden: So, um, I'm thinking about the SNL skit recently, where I think it was Olivia Rodrigo. It might have been Sabrina Carpenter, but because she's been showing up on a lot more of the SNL season. But she's in the bedroom and singing the song about her perfect teen bedroom. And then it kind of pulls forward and it's like all the aliens are like, she's like the pet squirrel, you know, in the alien realm. And yeah, we'll all be able to. Be that with our data. You know, we'll fully maximize our realm.

Lenny Murphy: If we're not already, Sarah, but that's a whole other conversation. Karen, nevertheless, this, so I'm it anyway. If you're following this, the second tranche of the UFO files were released this morning by the government.

Sarah Snudden: Oh, sorry. I didn't, that was not Karen, that was not a setup for the budget.

Lenny Murphy: I saw the opportunity. I took it. So, All right. This is you did not. She's better. I'm sure she's thinking better of Lenny to go off on the UFO stuff with you than with me. But I didn't go off on it. It was just a shout out. This Wall Street Journal article, The American Rebellion Against AI is Gaining Steam. I just thought this was really interesting. It validated some things that I've been picking up even in my, with my own kids.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah. That it's not that my kids aren't just weird while they are. But there is something in the zeitgeist, there is something, a backlash that we need to pay attention to at the consumer level. That, and I think my take is this is intrinsically a it's not necessarily the financial impacts. I mean, those are part of it, but what I'm picking up is that there is a drive for authenticity, for connection, and the, as well as the overall systemic impacts of the technology, are really turning a lot of people off. And that has implications as we're embracing these technologies to engage with consumers. And I think we need to be cautious of that. There may be, that some consumers may actually, response rates could decline with Gen Alpha or Gen Z. If they're like that, I don't want to talk to any moderator. So I thought this was really interesting.

Sarah Snudden: What people are taking. So, on the specific case of AI-assisted qual, which I think is a major unlock in a lot of ways, I don't, again, going back to that earlier point of like, you don't have to hit people over the head with it as much. Like, if you're talking to an AI chat bot, that kind of does, that's in your face. But setting that aside for now, or there's some of the models like the ones that have more of a karaoke screen of the question, where you're essentially talking to yourself on the phone and probes are coming at you, like conveyors is like that. You've got the reality of accessing people who can give you their information in a way that's much more comfortable and intuitive and so I feel like it's work aroundable, but maybe we just don't clunk people over the head with the AI piece as heavily. Because of the individual micro decisions of like, do I want to do this interview and get more Starbucks points? That coffee's pretty compelling. So I think there's a thoughtfulness that we have. Should have. The piece where I kind of spin out into the bigger implications, you know, after looking at kids, we both have teenagers and you have more, you have a wider set. Your portfolio is a wider portfolio. You got a 15-year-old.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah, spread my bats, Sarah.

Sarah Snudden: Man, I that egg in one basket, you know, that I crossed your fingers, but um. The hacky sack movement is really fascinating to me. Like the news around hacky or footbag coming back, and I didn't see that, that's bad. Yeah, it's actually been getting a decent amount of coverage and uh selling out in a lot of the stores that have always had a few hacky sacks or footbags on the shelf. And um, I think it's that desire for togetherness and being outside and touching grass that, um, gives me a little glimmer of hope. It offsets, I think, the reality of data centers is the other way that. So, like, when I talk to non-industry people who are doing more regular things in their lives than thinking about insights and data and AI all the time, when I talk to those people, they talk to me about being scared about their grandparents getting ripped off on a scam call because the AI sounds like their kid in trouble. Or increasingly, you're hearing about the environmental impact. And I was talking to a teenager the other day who's like, how do I get past the fact that Google's giving me the AI search results without me asking, and I'm contributing to like resource waste for something I didn't need. And I was like, Yeah, that's a real dilemma. I don't know how that works. But I think the other piece that's an interesting counterbalance is in our world of insights and marketing and business and increasing our OI and bigger, better, faster, more. With a lot of engineering around it. I also think back to professors like Gina Fong at Northwestern Kellogg, who teaches the one qual class in Kellogg's business school. And being able to truly predict, you know, how people will behave from really strategic qual is still there. I think of it metaphorically as like the beaver in uh west london. World that instead of doing the big build the levee process, you've got one beaver who just like a park got reset and now it's a wetland and it's a lot more efficient. So, like, I feel like that balance between the nature of the world and how we offset all this complex engineering we're capable of And it's like, yeah, but the beaver fixed the, you know, and now the tube station isn't flooded all the time. You know, and the qual moderator, you know, deserves to be championed because if you're doing that qual really well, you've essentially done a predictive segmentation, you know, that you can validate with quant. But, the real thinking and strategic listening and curiosity all kind of get you to the same place, but in very different ways.

Lenny Murphy: That's a great point. And I love, I think that that takeaway is a good sum between all of this, that we think about these processes and efficiencies and systems and, you know, and, you know, the financial flows and yay, right? You know, those things aren't debatable from a purely pragmatic standpoint, but there are trade-offs. But fundamentally, our industry is about understanding humans and we need to pay attention that I can fall into that trap of just tunnel vision, you know, on these things and to get the feedback to know that, no, it is, the human that unlocks all of the value here. And humans sometimes can ignore and say, I know this makes the most sense from a, you know, whatever pragmatic standpoint. I don't care. You know, this, it's not what I want.

Sarah Snudden: Yeah. And I think about, you know, going, going more into the synthetic space.

Lenny Murphy: Good segue.

Sarah Snudden: Yeah, there's so much. Well, you know, both Bluepill and Panaplay did such a nice job explaining their propositions at IIEX. But it leaves me kind of thinking about the cure and feeding of those models. Like, it's not like the cure and feeding of an actual human, but it is kind of like the you leave that sourdough in the fridge and it doesn't, it doesn't go anywhere good, and it's not the bread you want to eat. So there's a part of me that, you know, recognizes the work of like if synthetic's really going to work well for any of us, you've got to have kind of the fresh inputs coming in. And honestly, you know, from a pragmatic client's perspective, I'm. Frankly less interested in forecasting like my top box purchase score or, you know, where it falls on a Likert scale when I could hear a real human and watch their, like, are they excited? Are they meh? I can hear in their voice, I can see what's on their shelf. Like, all of that's really exciting and good, but it has to keep pumping into that model. I feel like to me, social listening is a balance on sort of the synthetic because it, in theory, it's staying with that dynamic marketplace and putting stuff together. But, you know, thanks to IIEX for getting me into spotting emotion. You know, there was kind of the 2015, 16, 17 phase of where we were all thinking about unstructured data and finding like, you know, the volume of comments versus the emotional heat that consumers had. And, I built that model at Keurig. I, I, you know, manually. Now I'm just, now I look at the world and I'm like, ah, too early, you know. But it was hard to maintain in a manual, you know, sense of kind of pumping all the CRM and all the product reviews, all the open ends, and all the transcripts. And now it's also automatable.

Lenny Murphy: Seems hopeful that we could, you know, keep our sourdough alive and our bread always a good thing, and that the, you know, there's a great article from Bain. Um, synthetic customers earn their stripes, uh, you know, obviously to recognize, but there's Bain Consulting, there's also Bain Private Equity. They have, they have some, some equity in businesses in our space, um, that are data centric, but I thought it was a really good article. It's worth it guys, on just a pretty, pretty objective view on here's the use cases. And to your point, you know, we got to keep it fresh. So last but not least, what did you think about this AI Eats the World presentation from Benedict Evans?

Sarah Snudden: Frame it up for the viewers at home.

Lenny Murphy: Bennett Evans is a transanalyst fundamentally. Does an always every year do a presentation like this. And it was looking at, all right, here, here is AI's structural penetration across categories, right? Here's where it's being used. Here's how it's being used. And the title, I think, was accurate, right? I mean, AI East World. There was nothing where there was not some level of penetration across the board, and some obviously very significant. I just thought it was just validation, you know, of, yeah.

Sarah Snudden: I mean, and it's the perfect, you know, balance to the Wall Street Journal article of like, and people are feeling a little anxious about it, like, maybe you want to go smash some machines, you know, hang with your guild.

Lenny Murphy: You know, increasingly, if you tell your son this through my career, right? I increasingly tell him Zeke, all right, you need to know how to make stuff, fix stuff, but just in case our robot overlords take over, break stuff.

Sarah Snudden: So. We haven't, we haven't gotten there. I'm like, maybe you could be a comedian. I feel like humans still have to do that.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Sarah, I think that's it. We covered all the topics. It's such a joy to do this again.

Sarah Snudden: It was really fun. Thanks.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah. And seriously, listeners, Sarah's available. So you need to. Well, on that note, how can people find you? Go ahead.

Sarah Snudden: You know what? I'm on LinkedIn an awful lot these days. So that's a super easy way to connect.

Lenny Murphy: Okay. So, yeah.

Sarah Snudden: All right.

Lenny Murphy: Well, next week, Karen, we'll be back. Thank you for stepping in. There were big shoes to fill, and you did a fantastic job.

Sarah Snudden: Yep. It was a pleasure.

Lenny Murphy: All right. Thanks. All right, everybody. We'll talk to you next week. All right. Bye-bye.

Links from the episode:

Publicis Acquires LiveRamp for $2.2 Billion 

Qualtrics Acquires Press Ganey Forsta for $6.75 Billion 

RADAR Raises $170M Series B at $1B Valuation 

Bolt Insight Launches Bolt Intelligence 

KS&R Introduces the ECHO Index for Synthetic Data Governance 

illumin and Cint Make Brand Measurement Immediate and Actionable in Programmatic Advertising 

U.S. to Award Quantum-Computing Firms $2 Billion and Take Equity Stakes 

Meta Reassigns 7,000 Workers to Focus on AI 

Google I/O: Gemini 3.5 Flash Launched for Agentic Workflows 

WSJ: "The American Rebellion Against AI Is Gaining Steam" 

Bain: “Synthetic Customers Earn Their Stripes” 

Benedict Evans: “AI Eats the World” Presentation